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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:33 PM
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Mr. Wiz's Avatar
United States, MI, Fenton
Joined Jan 2000
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Right to work battle in Michigan

Well, the battle is mostly over or at least I believe it to be so. I just don't understand the opposition's argument.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-michigan?lite

This isn't about taking away your right to join a union. It's about giving you back your right to make that choice for yourself. Why should there be a law requiring you to join a union? Isn't that the government sticking it's nose in where it doesn't belong?
I can see why the union leadership doesn't like this but anyone else? Being in a union should be a choice not a condition of employment.

You know why the unions don't like this, don't you? They don't like it because there are auto plants in other states that are not unionized and the workers there are happy. Imagine, a cooperation between a company and it's employees where both sides are happy and nobody has to pay for a union or suffer their heavy-handed tactics. You'd think that was unAmerican or something.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:44 PM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
RumRunner_1492's Avatar
Dayton, OH
Joined Feb 2006
418 Posts
Every state should be a righ to work state. The employees should have the freedom to chose. I don't understand how anyone could be against this. The left says they are pro-choice but almost always come down on the side of limiting choice.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:56 PM
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Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
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They want the 'right' to own a State backed monopoly on work and wages, and to force others to join their unions. They don't want to compete.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:33 PM
Chillin till SEFF
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Warner Robins, GA
Joined Aug 2003
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The teacher's union abandoned the kiddies to go and show their support too
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:43 PM
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CrazyLittle's Avatar
United States, OH, Brilliant
Joined Sep 2011
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Not that any of you guys would actually be affected by RTW laws, but for those who do work for an hourly wage, here's what it would do:

Quote:
http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/briefi...ngPaper299.pdf
  • Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lower than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually than a similar worker in a non-RTW state.
  • The rate of employer-sponsored health insurance (ESI) is 2.6 percentage points lower in RTW states compared with non-RTW states, after controlling for individual, job, and state-level characteristics. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive ESI at this lower rate, 2 million fewer workers nationally would be covered.
  • The rate of employer-sponsored pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states, using the full complement of control variables in [the study's] regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, 3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:51 PM
Chillin till SEFF
bildo baggins's Avatar
Warner Robins, GA
Joined Aug 2003
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I am looking at a map of poverty levels as compared to RTW states and not seeing that correlation. Of course my source could be wrong

#detroitrockcity!
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:52 PM
LcJ
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United States, LA, Monroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Not that any of you guys would actually be affected by RTW laws, but for those who do work for an hourly wage, here's what it would do:
Yep and how much does it cost for them to stay in the union. Whether it can be tracked in detail or not, I don't know. But from my experience with Unions they came right out of a merger between communists/socialists/progressives and organized crime's protection rackets. That is about all I have to say about it.

Last question. How many viable companies have been brought to failure by union demands and controls?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:54 PM
Unrepentant Paragon addict
LVsoaring's Avatar
United States, OK, Moore
Joined Jan 2006
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Ahem, you are incorrect CL. I do work for an hourly wage.

Your quoted information suggests you are in favor of government interference in the employer-employee relationship. Would I be correct in concluding that freedom of association means little to liberals such as yourself?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:56 PM
Chillin till SEFF
bildo baggins's Avatar
Warner Robins, GA
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Unions had a place at one time and still could. Unfortunately corruption, greed and thugism has destroyed the once respected name
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:59 PM
Foamie Freak!
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United States, NC, Cornelius
Joined May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Not that any of you guys would actually be affected by RTW laws, but for those who do work for an hourly wage, here's what it would do:
So, why do we hear of all the troubles with companies,municipalities,states,etc, having troubles with paying out all those goodies then, if all that is such a good thing? My Dad was in a union his whole adult life and hated it. Thought it was just ridiculous he had to pay union dues. Seems like a day doesnt go by when you dont hear about these things. If they were soooo great, why the problems? you guys are a trip trying to justify BS....
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:18 PM
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United States, OH, Brilliant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVsoaring View Post
Ahem, you are incorrect CL. I do work for an hourly wage.

Your quoted information suggests you are in favor of government interference in the employer-employee relationship. Would I be correct in concluding that freedom of association means little to liberals such as yourself?
My quote's not in-favor nor against RTW. It's just showing you the effects of RTW on hourly wages.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:42 PM
Cat Rack
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Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Not that any of you guys would actually be affected by RTW laws, but for those who do work for an hourly wage, here's what it would do:
That's wonderful.

Is this the reason to take away the right to work for a wage you find sufficient, or to be able to refuse to join a union?

What I'm seeing here is yet another example of treating people as means instead of ends, with their labor and choices as the tool to be directed to serve the ends illustrated above.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:43 PM
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A naive question. Suppose in a RTW state, I work for a company with a union, and don't join. Does the union negotiate for working conditions, pay, health care, retirement, etc, just for their members, or does it apply to me as well? Am I getting the union benefits for free? Or is it that I might negotiate a better, or worse, deal for myself that the union would get for me?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:46 PM
Cat Rack
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Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
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If I decide to plant a very nice garden in my yard knowing my neighbors home value may improve because the street looks nicer, should I get to charge him because *I* wanted the garden?

The knock on impacts of making decisions do not obligate those effected by the initiator's choices, to the person making those choices. The fact that effects will be outside of your control and some may benefit someone else at no cost to them is simply part of what to consider when making the choices.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 10:50 PM
Gravity is patient............
Joined Mar 2006
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Unions are such a great idea you have to make laws forcing people to join them.
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