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Old Mar 20, 2005, 05:20 PM
Sussex, UK
RobinBennett's Avatar
Crawley, West Sussex, UK
Joined Jun 2004
7,374 Posts
3D planes for moderate wind?

I've learnt to fly 3D planes (not very well) over the winter at indoor meetings. At the moment I fly a mini3DX, which is great, lovely and slow and very agile but outdoors it just gets blown around - it's almost as bad as the slowstick I was flying last year! Even 10mph of wind is enough to take the fun out of flying it, hovering is just medium speed flight into the wind, etc, etc..

So, what's the solution? Should I build something bigger, or heavier, or both? Hopefully I won't crash *quite* as often as I do flying indoors, so EPP isn't essential (luckily, as it's hard to find in the UK)

Or is 3D flying just impossible in the wind?

Typical summer wind strengths around here are 10-15mph and I don't mind flying something else when it's windier than that.
Any suggestions?
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Old Mar 20, 2005, 06:06 PM
www.M-A-E.com
rcflyer11's Avatar
Lilburn, GA, USA
Joined Dec 2000
1,175 Posts
Hi Robin - I fly our SLICK and Nemesis 3D-II planes (roughly same size & weight as the Mini-3DX) in 10-15mph winds with reasonable success. Onlookers have commented on how well the planes fly in the wind.

It's definitely more challenging, and it helps if your power setup has enough pitch-speed to "outrun" the wind A slightly heavier battery can also help.

Randy
Model Airplane Engineering
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Old Mar 20, 2005, 08:40 PM
My other car...
noodle's Avatar
Joined Oct 2004
727 Posts
I think you've just got to tone your flying style to flying in wind. Last year I had a blast with my beat up Slow Stick in 10-15mph gusting winds.

The full size 3DX also does great in wind. It will never be as smooth as indoor stuff, but still smooth enough to be fun.

noodle
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Old Mar 20, 2005, 09:24 PM
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IA-Flyer's Avatar
United States
Joined Nov 2003
1,576 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinBennett
I've learnt to fly 3D planes (not very well) over the winter at indoor meetings. At the moment I fly a mini3DX, which is great, lovely and slow and very agile but outdoors it just gets blown around - it's almost as bad as the slowstick I was flying last year! Even 10mph of wind is enough to take the fun out of flying it, hovering is just medium speed flight into the wind, etc, etc..

So, what's the solution? Should I build something bigger, or heavier, or both? Hopefully I won't crash *quite* as often as I do flying indoors, so EPP isn't essential (luckily, as it's hard to find in the UK)

Or is 3D flying just impossible in the wind?

Typical summer wind strengths around here are 10-15mph and I don't mind flying something else when it's windier than that.
Any suggestions?
Glad you started this post!

Itís about time to move outdoors, but Iíd like to keep the flying characteristics of my Yak 54.
I was hoping you would have a dozen replies suggesting AXI 2808 / 2820 size 3D birds by now.
Iím wondering how one of these would work, at least they have a heavier wing loading?

Yak 55
Sukhoi
Hot Rod Extreme
Raven


I have a 2820/12, I wonder if the Yak could be scaled up (balsa) to 150% or so?
Jim
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Old Mar 20, 2005, 11:22 PM
It Is All Fun
Dick Rankin's Avatar
Arlington, Texas
Joined Mar 2003
423 Posts
Windy Day Flying?

Hey Robin,
Build you a plane with a swept leading edge. I have had very good results with my 36" Proud Bird in 10-15mph winds. The best windy day flyer I have ever had. It is all more challenging in the wind, being so light weight. But even my 47" ws PB today in 10mph winds, I could just harrier it there next to me. Yeah you can still do 3D, just approaching it a little different. Harrier forward and backward to a tail touch, backward elevators, harrier rolls with no forward motion, just use your imagination, you just can't hover vertical very long without the wind carring it away, or just let the wind carry it, call it Walking the dog.
Where there is a will there is a way! You will figure it out guy.

Oh, one bit of advice. When flying in wind, the risk is a lot higher to hit the gound a little harder than the regular soft touch harrier landing, in order to help your foam last a little longer it is always helpful to apply a layer of thin clear packing tape along the fuse, especially the bottom portion. It really makes it a lot stronger, with only adding a little more weight.

Here are some pics of my planes. The Yellow & Red belong to my friend Kirby.
Hope this can be helpful and give you some ideas.

Happy Flying!
Dick
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 12:49 AM
Registered User
Fort Worth, Tx
Joined Oct 2004
317 Posts
I Flew Dick Rankins Red and Black 47" Proud Bird today. Didn't do a whole lot with it. But what I did do with it I was amazed at how well it responded in the wind. It is a stable bird to fly in the wind.

One day I will have to have a outdoor electric plane to fly. But need a power system first!
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 01:12 AM
24 yrs. of Aircraft flying
epoweredrc's Avatar
United States, GA, Rockmart
Joined Oct 2004
5,822 Posts
yeah the wind sucks in wind,I have been wanting to fly so much cause the nice sunny weather but the wind is blowing like always in march here In Paulding,Ga I wish I Had something that flew better in the wind was hovering other day and the wind over powered me flew it Right into something.A little glue and fixed but I wont try the wind anymore I guess.I like to fly more then once in the after noon before dark.I'm flying the www.fancyfoam.com edge 540 great plane but I'm guessing cause just so light the reason the wind tosses it,I would think a smaller plane would be worse in the wind but maybe not.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 01:25 AM
Registered User
Nacogdoches, Texas
Joined Feb 2005
285 Posts
I have The Judge from Hobby Lobby and it can handle 10 mph winds pretty well.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 01:37 AM
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Bill Mixon's Avatar
Georgia
Joined Mar 2002
1,692 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinBennett
Or is 3D flying just impossible in the wind?
Well it's not impossible, but it's less fun in wind, and I don't care what size plane it is, it will get blown around in the wind.
Doesn't matter if it's a 4oz. indoor model or a 40% scale model. They will both get beat around by the wind.
I'm constantly reading threads on here where the "solution" to wind is building heavier planes. I can't follow that thinking. I fly various size planes and in general if it's too windy to fly one, it's too windy to fly any of them. My big heavy planes might not get pushed around quite as bad but they still get pushed around making it no fun at all. So my solution is to fly just as the sun is comming up or going down, or at night under the lights. The wind isn't typically blowing then.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 01:56 AM
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Threshold's Avatar
London UK
Joined Jul 2004
2,530 Posts
I have the same problem at my local field which is on an exposed hill. I was flying yesterday in a 12mph wind. Prop hanging is out because the minute you go into a high harrier you get blown back, what I do then is practise knife edge hovering into wind so the plane is stationary in a knife edge hover which you can't do without wind or indoors as the minute you tilt the nose to the side without wind it tracks off.

Bill all I can suggest is a slightly bigger heavier plane that is very clean and has very positive control. All my bought shock fliers get tossed around and sometimes are completely out of control but my latest own design 1 meter ship is very much better to fly in a wind than anything else I have tried. You can also practise rolling harriers stationary relative the ground and knife edge works really well as the wing loading goes up so something stable in knife edge is good. Why not build my monoplane and give it a shot. You put a double stator C&K motor in there and get 2:1 power to weight ratio and off you go. Just look for the thread My New Monoplane.

We plan to fly a lot in the late evenings in summer when all the IC boys have had to stop flying.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 09:36 AM
24 yrs. of Aircraft flying
epoweredrc's Avatar
United States, GA, Rockmart
Joined Oct 2004
5,822 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mixon
Well it's not impossible, but it's less fun in wind, and I don't care what size plane it is, it will get blown around in the wind.
Doesn't matter if it's a 4oz. indoor model or a 40% scale model. They will both get beat around by the wind.
I'm constantly reading threads on here where the "solution" to wind is building heavier planes. I can't follow that thinking. I fly various size planes and in general if it's too windy to fly one, it's too windy to fly any of them. My big heavy planes might not get pushed around quite as bad but they still get pushed around making it no fun at all. So my solution is to fly just as the sun is comming up or going down, or at night under the lights. The wind isn't typically blowing then.
known fact a 60 size glow plane can be flown in winds up to 25-35 winds but a 12 ounce foamies will just get pushed all over I know cause I tried to fly mine last week in it i had NO control at all full power and nothing it paused it all over then finally i got it on the ground.when i was 10 or so I would fly a big stick 60 with a weber 60 on it in the wind all the time people couldn't believe I was the one flying when came to watch.I had no problem controlling it .

you have to have something with enuff power on it to fly though the wind.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 01:34 PM
Registered User
Bill Mixon's Avatar
Georgia
Joined Mar 2002
1,692 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by foamiesrfun
known fact a 60 size glow plane can be flown in winds up to 25-35 winds but a 12 ounce foamies will just get pushed all over I know cause I tried to fly mine last week in it i had NO control at all full power and nothing it paused it all over then finally i got it on the ground.when i was 10 or so I would fly a big stick 60 with a weber 60 on it in the wind all the time people couldn't believe I was the one flying when came to watch.I had no problem controlling it .

you have to have something with enuff power on it to fly though the wind.
True, the glow plane can be flown in higher winds with more control authority, BUT it will still get blown around.
And I know for a fact that you can not fly a big stick in 25-35 mph gusting wind with "no problem controlling it". The wind moves it all over the place and you are having to make constant corrections for it.

That's kind of like the people I hear saying that speed 400 pylon racers don't get blown around in the wind. That's just total bullcrap. The wind moves them around just like anything else regardless of how heavily the wing is loaded. Now you might be able to fly it when it would be impossible to fly other lightweight designs, but IMO it doesn't matter because it's still getting knocked around making flying no fun.

The point I'm trying to make is that wind is just tough to deal with regardless of the type or size/wingloading of the model. And if you intentionally overload 3D planes just for the purpose of making them penetrate the wind better, you are ruining the flying qualities of an otherwise good design.
I guess in the end it's a personal preference. Fly 3D "bricks" because the wind is blowing and you just cant wait for calm air (the wind will still blow it around), or fly "properly" built 3D designs for no wind, and wait for calm conditions.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 02:49 PM
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dick hanson's Avatar
slc ut
Joined Nov 2003
867 Posts
reality check-
in a constant wind - the big factor is relative speed -so you simply need to fly faster - weight means ------nothing.
In gusts - weight (heavier loading) does count .
Speed beats weight too.
The formula for inertia is speed squared times weight .
To explain, a litle more speed is better than a lot more weight.
The best fix is to add more power .
OR
build bigger and faster model
I am doing the latter .
once wind hits honest 10 mph these models are dead ducks .
My 33% models handle all of this easily but fly at 80 mph.
speed to wing -8 to 1
on these 3D models it is literally a negative number -most will fly under 10 mph.
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 05:33 PM
My other car...
noodle's Avatar
Joined Oct 2004
727 Posts
Okay, I'll see if maybe I can clarify some of this.

The size of an airplane really makes no difference on how an airplane can handle wind. It's wing loading and speed that make the difference.

Here's a couple of examples:

Suppose you have a Slow Stick flying at 10 knots airspeed in a 10 knot breeze. Flying upwind, the airplane will have zero ground speed. Flying downwind, the airplane will have 20 knots of ground speed. This is double the cruise speed of the airplane.

Now suppose you have a S400 pylon racer flying at, say, 80 knots in a 10 knot breeze. Flying upwind, the airplane will have a ground speed of 70 knots. This is 7/8 of the airspeed. Flying downwind, the airplane will have a ground speed of 90 knots. This is 9/8 of the airspeed.

It could be startling to a pilot to have his airplane going twice the speed he expects it to go, or have no speed at all. On the other hand, a pilot would not be surprised to have his airplane fly at 9/8 of its standard speed or at 7/8 of its standard speed. Thus, it might be easier for a pilot to deal with a slight increase in speed than a huge increase in speed. So, it can be concluded that a pylon racer could be "easier" to fly in wind than a SS.

Also, wing loading is a huge factor. An airplane with a high wing loading is less susceptible to turbulence than an airplane with a low wing loading. So, a pylon racer would require less corrections when flying in wind.

All this could be interpreted to mean that a faster, heavier airplane is easier to fly in wind.

With practice, you can have a lot of fun flying just about any airplane in wind.
(Of course, really tiny planes really can't be flown in wind.)

I spend way too much time talking and way too little flying.

noodle
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Old Mar 21, 2005, 05:43 PM
Sussex, UK
RobinBennett's Avatar
Crawley, West Sussex, UK
Joined Jun 2004
7,374 Posts
OK, so we seem to agree that something big and not too heavy would be better than the normal 32" models.

I imagine that a proper wing section would make faster flying better, and at 4 or 5 foot wingspan a double skinned wing and 'proper' fuselage would be a lot stiffer and lighter than a flat plate.

I think I'd like something a bit like a big music bubble, but with a more scale appearance i.e. thinish EPP sheet rolled into something nice looking with a carved EPP canopy and cowl.

Thanks for the advice on maneovers to try - that's given me a lot to work on! When I can do a slow roll into the wind and stay a couple of feet from my nose I'll be very happy :-)
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