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Old Oct 21, 2013, 02:04 AM
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I don't know about anyone else, but my concerns about sliding have a lot more to do with the vulnerability of my shins than with the difficulty of landings. Making the landings harder is fine with me. It's harder for the other guy too. So why should it matter? Actually, I think the ALES tapes are too long, whether or not skegs are used.

I was at an ALES contest yesterday. It was windy and gusty, all day, lots of very good pilots with very fancy equipment didn't make the circle. Six out of ten missed the circle in the last round. Some didn't even land in bounds. Many who slowed down a bit too much before landing were blown away from the circle. With two channels of control, one of my three landings was a 50. (I made a mistake in round 4 and busted my plane on launch.) In the past, I've won several RES contests using a rudder elevator plane and no skeg. I've also won quite a few open contests using an RES plane and, perhaps, a skid. So don't tell me I don't know how to land. And just how many decades old does a skill have to be before it's no longer new?

I could say that I think the true reason most don't like skegs is that they haven't really thought it through*. But that would be no fairer than your accusation that the whole thing safety thing is a smoke screen. I think you're just looking at things from a different angle.



BTW, if memory serves, my timer made me duck this weekend to avoid a missed approach by someone else. But I think that was at the TD contest the day before.

*I make my skegs out of wood. Are you guys all vampires or something? ;-p

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrE View Post
I think this is the true reason most are wanting skegs. The whole safety argument is just a smoke screen

I understand that learning a new landing technique isnt easy - especially if you've been relying on a crutch/skeg for a long time - but Don nailed it. All it takes is practice.

Seriously - thats what flaps/spoilers/crow is for - to sloooooooow you down before you touch down, so you DONT slid forever.

If brand new pilots flying Radians with NO glide path control can do it, surely you old TD guys can figure it out



+1
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 02:13 AM
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Did you ever get a bone chip in your ankle from something hitting it?* Have you ever sprained your ankle?** Don't try to tell me that injuries below the knee (and certainly below that other stuff) don't matter. Unless there are no pain nerves in that area, anyway. When I think of an injury from a slide, it's in the ankle or shin. Plus, if you're unlucky, you get to break your wrist in the awkward fall that follows***. If you're really good you can crush your transmitter or plane.****

*In my case, it came from an idiot with a hockey puck, not a glider.
**Ice.
***Ice
****Not yet. I usually fall well. Wet grass, snow, ice, you name it, I have yet to crush the transmitter when falling. And I usually don't break anything else, either.
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Originally Posted by Curtis Suter View Post
Perspective.

I was flying with some good friends of mine today and I was commenting how one of our new pilots is landing so nicely with his new Prelude. Well we came to the conclusion that if a pilot is hit above the knees, well we used a different body part that a skeg would not have made a difference. It is all about energy management and if you have so much potential energy to hit someone that high up on the body that a skeg would not have made a difference. So to me when discussing whether a skeg would have made a difference or not it would require more investigation into the incident.

Curtis
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lincoln View Post
I don't know about anyone else, but my concerns about sliding have a lot more to do with the vulnerability of my shins than with the difficulty of landings.
Hi Lincoln,

If this is such a concern, why not stand a couple of meters to the side of the approach path?

That's what I do with ALES, only because that's how I've always landed - wingtip at the ankle

Cheers!
Glen
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 08:37 AM
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Sheesh, I guess I'm lost as can be. I always thought this was about another pilot hitting you, not you hitting yourself. I see this as a personal responsibility issue then. Learn to manage your energy or jump!

Curtis
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 09:00 AM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
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Originally Posted by lincoln View Post
Did you ever get a bone chip in your ankle from something hitting it?* Have you ever sprained your ankle?** Don't try to tell me that injuries below the knee (and certainly below that other stuff) don't matter. Unless there are no pain nerves in that area, anyway. When I think of an injury from a slide, it's in the ankle or shin. Plus, if you're unlucky, you get to break your wrist in the awkward fall that follows***. If you're really good you can crush your transmitter or plane.****

*In my case, it came from an idiot with a hockey puck, not a glider.
**Ice.
***Ice
****Not yet. I usually fall well. Wet grass, snow, ice, you name it, I have yet to crush the transmitter when falling. And I usually don't break anything else, either.
I broke my leg walking my dog -- should we outlaw leashes?

Please provide any kind of documentation that ANYBODY has ever suffered a shin or ankle injury in the last 40 years that required medical attention as a result of a glider sliding into them.

It is more likely (and can in fact be documented) that planes have injured people FLYING into them -- and no skeg will mitigate that in any way.

If this is a safety problem at all, it is nothing compared to standing next to someone who is ignorantly running a cheap chinese propeller above its rated speed. Solve that problem and maybe it might be worth talking about sailplanes bumping into ankles.

Happy Landing,

Don
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 09:20 AM
Making wood fly since 2007
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I have the perfect solution, safety gear. I would like to propose the following for all pilots and spotters in the landing area. See picture below..

Wayne
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dharban View Post
I broke my leg walking my dog -- should we outlaw leashes?

Please provide any kind of documentation that ANYBODY has ever suffered a shin or ankle injury in the last 40 years that required medical attention as a result of a glider sliding into them.

It is more likely (and can in fact be documented) that planes have injured people FLYING into them -- and no skeg will mitigate that in any way.

snip

Don
Maybe it's not a safety problem. Maybe it's just that I'm more comfortable timing, or landing, when I think the guy in the next circle is less likely to hit me.

I can't document an injury. I can document the clear potential for an injury. It might even be an injury. In fact I already have, previously in this thread. Occurs at about 40 seconds in this video:
F3j landing (1 min 2 sec)

It seems likely that if there have been severe injuries, lawyers have hushed them up. That's how the system works. For instance, I just checked the AMA annual insurance report, and there are very few details about incidents, on advice of the AMA's attorneys.

You write that no skeg can prevent a plane from flying into someone. I am not sure how you know a glider will never bounce. If it has a bit of extra speed, how do you know it won't go right back into the air when the nose bounces off the ground? Happens to other aircraft. A skeg will make a bounce less likely, and, if it happens, less energetic.

Anyway, I didn't invent this. Many years ago, some epic slides on wet grass imprinted themselves on my brain. Those memories are fuzzy now, so I can't give you chapter and verse. It's been many years since I went to contests where most of the larger gliders didn't have skegs. Wait a couple of years and if I go to as many ALES contests as I hope to, I'll be able to provide you with more pertinent information about incidents. I'm hoping nothing severe, but you never know.

Lincoln
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 08:03 AM
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LOL that you call that an injury without knowing the facts. He probably fell over to not have his legs anchored in place to lessen wing damage. He might be laughing so hard that he hasn't bothered trying to stand up yet. Depending on one's fitness level/activity, such a fall might be a bit of a shock and creaky old bones might take a bit longer to organize to stand up without nicking the aircraft. I'm not saying it wasn't an injury but that video sure doesn't prove it was IMHO.

Cheers!
Glen
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by gpeden View Post
LOL that you call that an injury without knowing the facts. He probably fell over to not have his legs anchored in place to lessen wing damage. He might be laughing so hard that he hasn't bothered trying to stand up yet. Depending on one's fitness level/activity, such a fall might be a bit of a shock and creaky old bones might take a bit longer to organize to stand up without nicking the aircraft. I'm not saying it wasn't an injury but that video sure doesn't prove it was IMHO.

Cheers!
Glen
do you actually deny that the potential for injury was not there when he fell?

it is fine to disagree on the issue of allowing skegs or not, but to deny that prohibiting skegs could cause a safety issue, seems unreasonable.
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 11:39 AM
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No, I don't deny that, but the video has been posted 3 or 4 times as evidence of injury. This "safety" issue seems trivial to me and it reminds me of my workplace where people love to hoist the safety flag to get their priority repair done fast The timer can stand a bit to the side for the few seconds of landing so he/she can more easily get out of the way and the pilot can mange risk in the manner of their choice.

It's unreasonable to insist on a big safety issue without posting any examples of injury.

Mistakes happen and mismanagement of energy can be quite a surprise when it becomes obvious the last few seconds of an approach. So far on a couple of occasions I've managed to setup an approach without enabling landing mode and when I engaged crow to throw out the anchor, it did not happen. Once was in a contest doing a rather hot approach and I was able to do a quick 330 degree circle and get 35 or 40 points The other time I came to learn that it takes more than a quick step to get out of the way of a 3 M wing - the outer panel hit my shin and the short sections of tape I use released and the wing separated a bit. In the latter case a SKEG would have helped, but I still don't want one. So my personal learning experience from this has me now nervously pulling back on the flight mode switch during the downwind leg to double-check that I've got it right.

Most of the potential safety issues I've seen in contests involve wildly out of control pilot/aircraft where the glider is lawn-darting in some random landing lane (either on launch or a stall turn after a missed landing) or flying awkwardly at other pilots not too close to the ground. In those cases the SKEG would not help and it's rough shape might cause injury to the pilot it grazes

Cheers!
Glen
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 02:44 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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cool, we agree it is a potential safety issue... And it seems that at least in one case involving yourself, a skeg might have helped.

but hey, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion.

my personal opinion is that I like the rules the way they are... I think the guys that made them, know a lot more about things than I do, and I love flying the rules the way they are.

my personal contribution to the sport, is being cannon fodder for the better pilots, and attending as many contests as I can.
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 03:49 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
my personal contribution to the sport, is being cannon fodder for the better pilots, and attending as many contests as I can.
And I might add that you're doing a damn fine job of it! Guess who won in R.I. Was hoping to see you there. Next year.

Preston
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 04:28 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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And I might add that you're doing a damn fine job of it! Guess who won in R.I. Was hoping to see you there. Next year.

Preston
well, I do try.

my guess is that you won.
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
cool, we agree it is a potential safety issue... And it seems that at least in one case involving yourself, a skeg might have helped..
No actually I do not think it is a safety issue, never said that at all, but more of an aircraft damage issue It didn't cause me pain or injury, just a few seconds of self-directed disgust

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
My personal opinion is that I like the rules the way they are... I think the guys that made them, know a lot more about things than I do, and I love flying the rules the way they are.
OK, I think we agree on that!

Cheers!
Glen
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