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Old Feb 23, 2012, 11:22 AM
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Tissue paint

Back in the day we use to use dope on tissue covering. What is the prefered and available paint for tissue coverings.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 01:13 PM
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Unfortunately, the old 'dope n fabric' method of covering has fallen to the wayside. Me, it's all I use - for the sake of authenticity...not to mention when applied properly really doesn't shink all that bad and is fairly strong. So, in response to your question whenever possible I DYE my silkspan, which (if you're going for a 'used' look) after applying both gloss and flat dope gives a nice weathered appearance. I also purchased from Micromark a set of powders that can be used straight or made as washes. Washes work well for me prior to the last applications of dope to lock them in, then I like to either airbrush the powders for light weathering or lightly rub them in the appropriate locations. Not sure if this really answered your question.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
Unfortunately, the old 'dope n fabric' method of covering has fallen to the wayside. Me, it's all I use - for the sake of authenticity...not to mention when applied properly really doesn't shink all that bad and is fairly strong. So, in response to your question whenever possible I DYE my silkspan, which (if you're going for a 'used' look) after applying both gloss and flat dope gives a nice weathered appearance. I also purchased from Micromark a set of powders that can be used straight or made as washes. Washes work well for me prior to the last applications of dope to lock them in, then I like to either airbrush the powders for light weathering or lightly rub them in the appropriate locations. Not sure if this really answered your question.
I'm researching the use of silkspan for some small (30" WS, +/-) FF to ERC conversions. One of the first things I started wondering about the use of dye and/or other alternatives to paint.
You mention using Micromark powders during the finishing process.
Is a "wash" some powder mixed w/water or w/nitrate dope?
Is it brushed on when applied between clear coats of dope?
When aribrushing on the final coat(s) how is the powder prepared for the airbrush?

On to dyeing:
Use standard fabric dye, like RIT? If yes, any deviation from usual, to mix dye in almost hot water and soak the fabric (silkspan) until desired color is achieved?
Does it affect the wet strength, or shrinking at all?

Also feel free to provide any information along these lines that I may not know I need to know yet.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 04:53 PM
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Joined Oct 2002
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If you're actually wanting to color paint the tissue then the old standard was coloured dope. If it's going to be used with a glow engine that is still the best option since butyrate dope is fuel resistant. Most other common coloured paints are NOT glow fuel resistant.

Colour dope is heavy due to the pigments. A more common system was to apply a lighter colour of coloured tissue and then seal it with a couple of coats of clear and then use thinner to bond down some constrasting colour tissue trim. Then more clear dope and the job was done. This resulted in a nice translucent finish which looks great flying overhead. Some would use coloured tissue then mask and colour dope the trim with compatible coloured dope.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazzepa1 View Post
I'm researching the use of silkspan for some small (30" WS, +/-) FF to ERC conversions. One of the first things I started wondering about the use of dye and/or other alternatives to paint.
You mention using Micromark powders during the finishing process.
Is a "wash" some powder mixed w/water or w/nitrate dope?
Is it brushed on when applied between clear coats of dope?
When aribrushing on the final coat(s) how is the powder prepared for the airbrush?

On to dyeing:
Use standard fabric dye, like RIT? If yes, any deviation from usual, to mix dye in almost hot water and soak the fabric (silkspan) until desired color is achieved?
Does it affect the wet strength, or shrinking at all?

Also feel free to provide any information along these lines that I may not know I need to know yet.
Mazzepa,
Starting with the dye process : Yes, just regular old fabric dye. As with dye, you'll need to monitor the length of time the silkspan is submerged to achieve the desired depth of color. Also, depending on the weight of silkspan used, there seems to be a small contrast in tone - light & medium darken nicely, but heavy seems not to obtain the darkness of the formers.
The Washes : The way that I prepare washes using powder is to add a small amount to BOILING water, otherwise it's possible for the mixture to end up a little grainy. You don't want it to be the consistancy of paint, etc. ...pretty much just a slightly heavier colored water. As far as application methods? Everyone has their own, not to mention that it will vary depending on what it is you are trying to acchieve. Something like mud splatters, I have pretty good luck starting with a little wash on a thick-bristled paintbrush and then pulling back the tip with my finger and letting the wash splatter on the desired area. But that would just be a starting point. Much easier to do than to explain.
One last thing then I'll shut-up...the powders & the airbrush : The powders are called Doc O'brien's Weathering Powders. There is an assortment of 12 of the most useful colors and of course these can be mixed and matched to obtain whatever you're needing. The powder is SUPER FINE, and as long as your paint pick-up tube IS submerged in the powder and set with the most open spray setting this hasn't presented a problem for me. This is fantastic for acheiving that dusty and faded look. I'm sorry, but my camera just recently took a &%$# and I have no photos to provide. Feel free to ask if this hasn't explained what you're needing.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 10:34 PM
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Some years back a Davidson leather lacquer used to be the one but now maybe some of this might be worth a try http://www.waproo.com.au/products/re...colour_change/
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 09:25 AM
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As may have already been guessed, upcoming projects likely ro be silkspanned are scale(ish) WW1, Golden Age, and vintage general aviation subjects.

B - Please excuse the acronym, ERC=electricRC, so no glow. Using nitrate dope.
Colored tissue on doped surface using thinner sounds like a very useful, and light technique for trim.

DbyD - Did that contraption in your avatar ever fly?
Silkspan wet/dry characteristics altered by dyeing?
Excellent tutorial on getting started w/the O'Brien powders. I'm going to get that set from Micromark to play with.
When they say "self-adhering", does that mean it won't fall off of a static model, or will it stay on in spite of the handling an rc plane will be subjected to? If no, will it adhere well enough to stay in place as clear dope is brushed on to seal it or must the seal coat be sprayed?

Olmod - Now that looks interesting. Surely a "leather lacquer" retains flexibility, a desirable characteristic in this application methinks.
Compatible with nitrate dope as an overcoating?

I really do appreciate the replies. Y'all are shortening the learning curve for me by a good lick.

Keep 'em flying, boys.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 09:30 AM
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Olmond,

WOW!! What an excellent idea...leather polish / enhancer. Have you used this with decent results? My only concern would be how much it weights. I recall beck in the day having to buff-out leather boots and the stuff was really pastey. Or does is thin out decently with MEK or the likes? The assortment of colors is impressive...tell me more, please
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazzepa1 View Post
As may have already been guessed, upcoming projects likely ro be silkspanned are scale(ish) WW1, Golden Age, and vintage general aviation subjects.

B - Please excuse the acronym, ERC=electricRC, so no glow. Using nitrate dope.
Colored tissue on doped surface using thinner sounds like a very useful, and light technique for trim.

DbyD - Did that contraption in your avatar ever fly?
Silkspan wet/dry characteristics altered by dyeing?
Excellent tutorial on getting started w/the O'Brien powders. I'm going to get that set from Micromark to play with.
When they say "self-adhering", does that mean it won't fall off of a static model, or will it stay on in spite of the handling an rc plane will be subjected to? If no, will it adhere well enough to stay in place as clear dope is brushed on to seal it or must the seal coat be sprayed?

Olmod - Now that looks interesting. Surely a "leather lacquer" retains flexibility, a desirable characteristic in this application methinks.
Compatible with nitrate dope as an overcoating?

I really do appreciate the replies. Y'all are shortening the learning curve for me by a good lick.

Keep 'em flying, boys.

Mazzepa,

Good man in regards to your choice of aircraft; we need to keep people interested in the WWI, Golden Age R/Cing.
Okay, No glow & nitrate dope : I keep a few cans of clear gloss & clear flat spray paint on hand, BUT SPRAY PAINT IS HEAVY...so use it sparingly if you use it at all. A light coat goes a long ways. Also, heat the spray can in hot water before applying - this will thin out the paint as much as you'll get from a can.
The Avatar is a Fokker V8 & as far as I've researched, the thing got airborne and the pilot made it back without killing himself...luckily. End of production
Powders adhesion : Sorry I didn't mention this before. Yes, to some degree the powders are self-adhesive (whatever that is supposed to mean), but what I've done is tack-up the area with a VERY SMALL amount of clear paint, wait till the stuff is starting to dry, the hit the area with the powder airbrush. And actually, without using tack-up paint, the powder looks better on the model the more it gets handled. A little wiping with your fingers in a few places to make it look a bit dirtier...
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
Mazzepa,

Good man in regards to your choice of aircraft; we need to keep people interested in the WWI, Golden Age R/Cing.....
The queue of kits on hand:
Bristol M1c - Aerowerkes
Thomas Morse Scout - Guillow's
PZL P11C - Dumas
These precede my Holy Grail to develop skills needed to build a really fine......
Luscombe 8A Silvaire - Monzano short kit.
To be built and finished as a copy of the 8A/C I had the privilege and very good fun to serve as owner/operator/crew chief of in the mid/late 70's. Good days boys, very good days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
Okay, No glow & nitrate dope : I keep a few cans of clear gloss & clear flat spray paint on hand, BUT SPRAY PAINT IS HEAVY...so use it sparingly if you use it at all. A light coat goes a long ways. Also, heat the spray can in hot water before applying - this will thin out the paint as much as you'll get from a can....
Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
The Avatar is a Fokker V8 & as far as I've researched, the thing got airborne and the pilot made it back without killing himself...luckily. End of production ....
That guy must have had a pair of brass ones....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
Powders adhesion : Sorry I didn't mention this before. Yes, to some degree the powders are self-adhesive (whatever that is supposed to mean), but what I've done is tack-up the area with a VERY SMALL amount of clear paint, wait till the stuff is starting to dry, the hit the area with the powder airbrush. And actually, without using tack-up paint, the powder looks better on the model the more it gets handled. A little wiping with your fingers in a few places to make it look a bit dirtier...
Will definitely try w/out any seal or overcoat measures first.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by johnfin View Post
Back in the day we use to use dope on tissue covering. What is the prefered and available paint for tissue coverings.
If you simply want some coloured trim (stripes, lines etc.) then coloured dope, enamel paint or spray is fine and the weight penalty will be minimum. Coat with a layer of fuel proofer if required. If you want a completely coloured wing, for example, then couloured tissue is the way to go. I find thinning coloured dope down just makes it look watery.

Interestingly, I recently read in an old copy of Aeromodeller that showed that Humbrol enamel paint actually weighs less than coloured dope (and it's still available)! The advert stated that it's fuel proof, but I don't think it is (maybe they changed the recipe).
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 07:55 PM
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Mazzepa,
After looking around a bit I found these photos of my Guillow's Nieuport XI electric conversion. Except for the plate under the cowl, all of this was done using the Doc O'Brien's powders. I didn't get too crazy because this is my son's first airplane and once airborne that will probably be the end of it. Also this gives you an idea of dyed silkspan using black in a medium weight, doped twice with nitrate, sprayed thrice with butyrate, a little dirtyness added, and a light combo of gloss & flat clear spraypaint.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
Olmond,

WOW!! What an excellent idea...leather polish / enhancer. Have you used this with decent results? My only concern would be how much it weights. I recall beck in the day having to buff-out leather boots and the stuff was really pastey. Or does is thin out decently with MEK or the likes? The assortment of colors is impressive...tell me more, please
As I posted you would have to try the modern equivelants ,the Davidson brand was good as you could thin it for lightweight models and as a bonus it was fuel proof for freeflighters but I can no longer find it on the market, but the car trade may be a place to talk to.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Thank you, Olmod...I'll do some checking into this; it certainly sounds like an interesting method.
Mazzepa, the M1c should prove to be a fun build; I have a 'thing' for wirey, old monoplanes. What airplane are you building right now? Just checked out the Aerowerkes website and it looks like a good kit, not that you need my opinion on that sort of thing, but it includes the design for making engine cylinders which seems to be excluded in a lot of kits these days...especially smaller, parkflyer type kits. If you haven't started, start collecting photos of REAL M1cs, they'll prove invaluable shortly into the build.
The Silvaire also looks fun! Luscombe aircraft have proven their worthiness for decades, and I'd think it to be a nice, gentle flyer. As for the owner/operator part of that...lucky you. I'm gearing up after my 81" Curtiss JN-4D to start a homebulit light aircraft project. Eventually, this hobby makes you thirst for the real thing.
Private Message me...I'd like to talk to you.

A few pictures of my Ponnier monoplane prior to being weathered
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 10:13 PM
This is kid stuff.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadByDawn View Post
Mazzepa,
After looking around a bit I found these photos of my Guillow's Nieuport XI electric conversion. Except for the plate under the cowl, all of this was done using the Doc O'Brien's powders. I didn't get too crazy because this is my son's first airplane and once airborne that will probably be the end of it. Also this gives you an idea of dyed silkspan using black in a medium weight, doped twice with nitrate, sprayed thrice with butyrate, a little dirtyness added, and a light combo of gloss & flat clear spraypaint.
"I didn't get too crazy." Holy smokes, man. That looks like a special piece of work to me. I see several things I'd like to ask to about, but I'll stay with covering/finishing.
1. I plan to go with dyed 00 silkspan on my M1.c, and figured it would be somewhat translucent. I think I may go over the structure with a Sharpie of similar color to reduce the contrast when using darker colored tissue.
2. When you say medium, is that what is sometimes referred to as 000?
3. When considering the weight/durability trade-off between 00 and 000, did the Nieuport fly well with the 000 on it? If you had it to do over again, would you stay with the 000?
4. That belly pan is righteous looking. Was it over the electronics? If so, what attachment means was used? Any fabrication and finishing tips would be appreciated.
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