New Products Flash Sale
Thread Tools
Old Apr 24, 2015, 12:54 PM
slotracer577 is online now
Find More Posts by slotracer577
Registered User
Joined Jan 2006
683 Posts
That is why it's nice to have fast servo's. You can gybe fast enough to not loose any ground. Keep the boom to port and you have as much rights as you can in any situation.

Note that if you use boom position for tack it works no matter what the wind direction.
slotracer577 is online now Find More Posts by slotracer577
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Apr 24, 2015, 03:09 PM
wyldrydes2 is offline
Find More Posts by wyldrydes2
Registered User
United States, CA, Oakland
Joined Apr 2012
721 Posts
Thx

Thank you one-n-all. I've got the hot links above in a folder plus these various explanations.
This is a great site. Nice work!

Jerry
GRP ODOM #540
Amen I-54 #77
Vortex SB #443
GRP Olsen Wheeler #14
wyldrydes2 is offline Find More Posts by wyldrydes2
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 24, 2015, 05:44 PM
nrallen1 is offline
Find More Posts by nrallen1
FlyerNik
Burbank, CA
Joined Sep 2009
28 Posts
Rules are part of the fun

Quote:
Originally Posted by triumphjon View Post
this sound far to political for me , this idea of rules takes away the fun element of the sailing . i prefer the try to avoid other boats and if boats do collide its a simple " sorry " between the two skippers and we carry on sailing .
What makes sailing "racing" not fun is when the players don't care to know the rules. It is a poor excuse and you aren't racing unless there is a defined framework. The number of arguments that arise from the skippers not understanding that they were not the ROW boat dominates my local club. I am relatively new to sailing models but I have flown GA aircraft for decades and the rules save my life and we aren't even racing. Most accidents arise from broken rules. Not caring to read or know them and to take umbrage from someone trying to explain them is a local club disease. I look for as many regional and national events I can and never are there situation as basic as this discussion. When you accept that there are rules then you may interpret them to the jurors in the room, or take your turns because you believe in Corinthian ethics.

Nick

Britpop #787 " Pinkpop"
ODOM # 295 " Black Ice"
RG 65 MX #230 "The Purple Nurple"
1956 Cessna 172 N5996A " Snoopy"
nrallen1 is offline Find More Posts by nrallen1
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 12:18 PM
hiljoball is online now
Find More Posts by hiljoball
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Canada, BC, Strathcona
Joined Jul 2011
617 Posts
This is an interesting incident from the IOM Worlds at Foster City – Facebook video. Race 24A - watch Yellow hull #47 and Blue hull #8 from 25 seconds onward.

Yellow hull, 47 starts drifting backwards and Blue hull, 8 is approaching from astern and leeward. Contact occurs and Umpires call penalty on 8, presumable under R 12.

https://www.facebook.com/10000413980...34994/?fref=nf
Name: Drifting backwards.jpg
Views: 3
Size: 29.9 KB
Description:

Here is a diagram that represents the tracks of the two boats (Yellow is 47 and Blue is 8). This is a starting line with the boats at P1 with about 25 seconds to the start. Yellow luffs almost head to wind and begins to drift backwards. Blue is luffing her sails and drifting forward and is passing astern of Yellow at P2. Yellow’s speed of drift increases between P2 and P3. Contact occurs at P3.

Yellow protests Blue and the Umpire calls a penalty on Blue, presumably under R 12.

There are a couple of items to note in the RRS.

First is that Yellow and Blue are not overlapped, as Blue is behind a line drawn square off the transom of Yellow. See the definition of Clear Ahead/Clear Astern/Overlap. As they are never overlapped, R 11 W/L never applis, and so there is no change in ROW from R 12 (Yellow clear ahead) to R 11 (Blue overlapped to leeward) and so R 15 which talks about giving room, does not apply. R 16 and R 17 do not apply either.

Second item is R22.3 which says
22.3 A boat moving astern through the water by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not.

In big boats, if Yellow was early, she might have a crew member back a sail to slow down and move astern – but in RC, there is no crew to back a sail.

So under the current rules, the Umpire call appears to be correct as R22.3 does not apply – sail is not being backed.

John
hiljoball is online now Find More Posts by hiljoball
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 12:37 PM
Dick L. is online now
Find More Posts by Dick L.
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,675 Posts
I agree with your assessment John - the yellow boat (based on above drawings) doesn't appear to have ever backwinded the sail - i.e. wind on the lee side of the sail. When crewed, it is possible for the crew (or skipper) to cleat the jib's clew to the opposite side of the boat (windward side). Very common practice in multihulls to help tack the bows through the eye of wind and helpful if a second servo to the jib is able to be used.
Dick L. is online now Find More Posts by Dick L.
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 01:21 PM
slotracer577 is online now
Find More Posts by slotracer577
Registered User
Joined Jan 2006
683 Posts
Interesting call. While probably correct for the rules, I would argue the rules intent was that a boat going backwards should not have rights. Also the overlap definition is intended for boats going forward, not backwards. Probably an area for the next revision of rules to address.

This seems to be unique for model sailing as big boats don't tend to sit on the line waiting for the gun like the iom class does now.
slotracer577 is online now Find More Posts by slotracer577
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 01:38 PM
hiljoball is online now
Find More Posts by hiljoball
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Canada, BC, Strathcona
Joined Jul 2011
617 Posts
I agree and I wrote to the IRSA Rules committee suggesting an Appendix E change for R 22.3 to delete the phrase 'by backing a sail'.

This would have the effect of requiring the backward sailing boat to stay clear.

John
hiljoball is online now Find More Posts by hiljoball
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 02:25 PM
lhurt is offline
Find More Posts by lhurt
Registered User
United States, WA, Port Townsend
Joined Feb 2006
189 Posts
I don't know about intent slotracer, but I do like the simplicity of calling running into another boats transom from astern a foul whether the clear ahead boat happens to be moving forward, astern or is stopped. It should be easier to judge as well only need to know where the collision occurred not the speed of the boats + or - at the time of the collision.

What is the original intent of R22.3, to prevent a boat from heaving-to on the startline?
lhurt is offline Find More Posts by lhurt
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 04:08 PM
TedFlack is online now
Find More Posts by TedFlack
Registered User
United States, MI, Bloomfield Hills
Joined Feb 2010
673 Posts
I watched that incident in person. The poor guy in the blue boat was basically sitting as still as he could and the yellow boat clearly backed into him. My immediate thought was that the yellow boat, by drifting backwards, was at fault. I was shocked when the judges called the blue boat. But I had forgotten about those words "by backing a sail".

That certainly needs to be fixed in the RC rules, it was a bad deal for the poor guy in the blue boat. He clearly did nothing wrong, he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was no different that someone backing into you in a car and the calling it your fault because it was a rear end collision. But at the same time I think the fellow in the yellow boat had no intention to back up, he was trying to hold his spot and got just a little too high into the wind and the luffing sails caused the boat to back up.
TedFlack is online now Find More Posts by TedFlack
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 04:52 PM
slotracer577 is online now
Find More Posts by slotracer577
Registered User
Joined Jan 2006
683 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhurt View Post
I don't know about intent slotracer, but I do like the simplicity of calling running into another boats transom from astern a foul whether the clear ahead boat happens to be moving forward, astern or is stopped. It should be easier to judge as well only need to know where the collision occurred not the speed of the boats + or - at the time of the collision.

What is the original intent of R22.3, to prevent a boat from heaving-to on the startline?
If the blue boat was slightly more to the left then there would have been an overlap. Then the yellow boat would have not had rights. Could be a tough call. I think it's easier to say your going backwards, you have no rights.

The yellow boat had an out, simply sheet in to avoid the collision. The blue boat is completely helpless. You have no way to avoid the collision. If you sheet it to get boat speed, you hit the other boat and no way to go backwards. It would make it very perilous to be below another boat on the starting line.
slotracer577 is online now Find More Posts by slotracer577
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 07:56 PM
lhurt is offline
Find More Posts by lhurt
Registered User
United States, WA, Port Townsend
Joined Feb 2006
189 Posts
John's suggested change has precedent in the Match Racing Rules (Appendix C):
C2.9 Rule 22.3 is changed to: ‘A boat moving astern through the water shall keep clear of one that is not.

After finally watching the video of the incident several times, I only have a few observations but no conclusions. The blue boat is approaching the start line at the crowded boat end trying to find a spot in the first row. Blue's forward motion never completely stops. Yellow luffs and scoots in the patch of water that blue was heading towards and gets there well early. She tries to open up space between herself and the leeward boat FRA100 but in doing so luffs too far into the wind for too long. It looks like Blue was making a move for the small gap that yellow has just opened up as yellow goes into irons and begins to go astern. Yellow boat accelerates astern quicker than I (and I'm guessing blue) envisioned. Pretty tough situation for all involved.

I guess the idea of boats on the front row being able to safely go astern wouldn't be very good for racing.
lhurt is offline Find More Posts by lhurt
Reply With Quote
Old May 19, 2015, 10:26 PM
Windward RC is offline
Find More Posts by Windward RC
DF65/No Excuses, Just Sailing!
Windward RC's Avatar
United States, TX, Richardson
Joined Feb 2011
1,098 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiljoball View Post
I agree and I wrote to the IRSA Rules committee suggesting an Appendix E change for R 22.3 to delete the phrase 'by backing a sail'.

This would have the effect of requiring the backward sailing boat to stay clear.

John
Thanks for that John, i agree with your assessment and it should be changed
Windward RC is offline Find More Posts by Windward RC
Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2015, 12:00 AM
wyldrydes2 is offline
Find More Posts by wyldrydes2
Registered User
United States, CA, Oakland
Joined Apr 2012
721 Posts
Row-burden

Quote:
Originally Posted by slotracer577 View Post
The ROW leeward boat can bring the BURDEN windward boat head to wind, but must give time to keep clear.
"Gregg28...The leeward boat has the right to bring the windward boat up as far as head to wind,."

1. Is it true that "head to wind" is measured by the luffing of the mainsail (not the jib)?

2. Tactic- If the ROW boat can point highter than the BURDEN boat, the ROW boat can make the BURDEN boat luff (if not an aquired) while overlapped?
wyldrydes2 is offline Find More Posts by wyldrydes2
Last edited by wyldrydes2; May 22, 2015 at 12:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old May 22, 2015, 09:00 AM
hiljoball is online now
Find More Posts by hiljoball
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Canada, BC, Strathcona
Joined Jul 2011
617 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyldrydes2 View Post
"Gregg28...The leeward boat has the right to bring the windward boat up as far as head to wind,."

1. Is it true that "head to wind" is measured by the luffing of the mainsail (not the jib)?

2. Tactic- If the ROW boat can point highter than the BURDEN boat, the ROW boat can make the BURDEN boat luff (if not an aquired) while overlapped?
Q1 - I have not seen any specific reference to which sail - on boats with overlapping jibs, it is easier to use the main, but on jibs as we use them on booms, the jib is a reliable indicator. I would use either sail - the first to cross the center line

Q2. This answer can change depending upon the circumstance - eg inside the zone, or overlap from astern - proper course limits, but in general, the leeward overlapped boat has ROW and may sail up to its proper course and windward must stay clear - and if it cannot sail as high as leeward and has to luff, so be it.
If the overlap is to windward from astern, then leeward may luff up to head to wind, but must give room as she alters course. The rules here are R 12, changing to R 11 with the overlap, and then R 16.1 for the luff.

John
hiljoball is online now Find More Posts by hiljoball
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Question about the Brushless 2226/2300 KV Easysky motor question (dolphin/cessna) twincobra Micro Ready-to-Fly 0 Feb 11, 2013 12:49 AM
Discussion AMA ALES Rules Question Roger Rocket Electric Competition Soaring-F5J/ALES/e-Soaring 7 Feb 01, 2013 04:33 PM
Discussion I know, I know stupid question about about World Tech Hercules Helo drtuvoc Coaxial Helicopters 1 Jan 26, 2013 08:40 PM
Discussion question about this sail plane munen123 Electric Sailplanes 8 Dec 29, 2006 04:52 AM