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Old Apr 19, 2005, 08:02 PM
EPP Rules!
aussie's Avatar
Sunshine Coast, Australia.
Joined Oct 2003
354 Posts
What's a DS foamie?

Norm Mertke recently upped the foamie DS record with a modified Electron to 161mph which had previously been held by Pat Bowman at 151mph with his JW for a couple of years. There also seems to be a renewed desire to push the DS limits of EPP even further.

Given that there's interest in bettering the record for the fastest foamie DS speed, I thought it might be time for some discussion to try and clarify exactly what a "foamie" actually is.

I often get amused at some "improvements" people make to EPP models and still try to pass them off as foamies when they're basically just a composite model with an EPP foam core wing - or a somewhat "squishy composite". I'm referring to practices such as embedding carbon rods in the leading edge, covering the entire wing, or good parts of it, with resin-impregnated fibreglass/carbon-fibre/kevlar, composite pods etc. etc. To me, such things completely defeat the ideals of a foamie - something that is very DURABLE and relatively SAFE, simple to construct and repair, and relatively inexpensive to purchase or make.

My personal view is that a "foamie" should basically be compliant with established combat rules in most regards except with the wingspan and weight limits removed (and maybe the allowable spar cross-sectional area increased). I think you're then left with a fair classification of a "foamie" ie. something that is primarily made of foam with a soft flexible covering and no hard objects/structures within 1 1/2 inches (maybe this could be reduced slightly) of the wings' leading edge or fuselage's nose. To me personally, anything other than that is no longer a foamie.

I guess I'm simply posing the question... When referring to "foamie DS records", what's a "foamie"? If anyone else cares, what are people's thoughts?

PS. I'm in no way suggesting that Norm's modified Electron shouldn't be classified as a foamie. As far as I'm concerned, it is a "foamie" and he rightfully holds the new foamie DS record. As both the designer and flyer, Norm gets a big congratulations from me!

Kye.
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 08:21 PM
217 Schnell
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Joined Dec 2004
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as long as there is no glass, carbon ect... covering the plane, then its a fomie.
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 09:22 PM
CaliforniaSailplanes.com
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So California
Joined Dec 2002
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Kye,

I think I know what you are trying to say.....but it is going to be difficult if not impossible to define.

Some fliers use Goop/toulene on the exterior of their fuse, does that make it a composite? Almost everyone uses carbon rods somewhere, does that make the plane a composite? What if we fill the foam and then sand and coat it, is it then a composite?

How about if the center section of a joined wing is glassed, is it a composite...? See we could go on and on....

If you look at the instructions for all the popular fast foamies you'll find some carbon part, but I hardly think that makes it a composite.

Perhaps this will work..... If the primary surface defining at least 85% area of the wing and the 85% area of the fuselage is foam, and it is covered only by tape, an iron on covering and/or paint (including goop), then it may be considered a foamie.

What do you think?

Steve
http://www.californiasailplans.com
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 09:34 PM
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What about elevons and stabs, or are we just talking no composite skin on the wing itself?
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 10:17 PM
Ninja of the Nasty
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Joined Jan 2004
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ok, HEAVILY modded electron or Stock JW... hmmm....... wich is the better design?

the JW that previously had the record had 2 cabron spars, and balsa elevons... EVERYTHING else was EPP and strapping tape... except the gooped fuse... BUT the gooped fuse is to stop tearing the ultracoat on parker's rough rocky landing... not a strentgh issue, its simply to keep the plane looking good after a day of flying parker.....

once fiberglass goes on a plane its should be compostie.... like the electron with the strip of fiberglass it comes with that you need to wet into place......

its simple really... the plane should be able to NOSE in the ground around 40mph and still fly that day... ive NOSED in my JW's ABOVE 130mph and just wiped them off and thrown them again... Ben's JW crashed above 120mph 3 times that day at vincent before he didn 146mph.... so if it crashes once and falls apart, its no longer EPP because EPP bounces... it shouldnt snap...

as much as i like austin and he's always welcome to crash at my house, his UPGRADES are questionable in my eyes for foamie records.....

so 161 with a TANK of an electron thats SO far off the stock build that people are gonna go buy them and be dissapointed when they snap and flutter in the low hundreds, or a stock JW that will go 150+ without flutter or flex.....

just my 2 cents

JOe
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 10:22 PM
Ninja of the Nasty
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Electron Parts LIST:

Kit Includes:


CNC Cut EPP Wing Cores (R & L)
EPP Fuselage, Balsa Elevons
Coroplast Vertical Stabilizer

1/4 x 24 Carbon Fiber Longeron
1/4 x 36 Carbon Fiber Wing Rod
1/8 x 1/2 x 36 Basswood Wing Spar (4x)
1/8 X 1/4 Balsa Cap Strips
1/2 x 30ft Fiberglass Tape
1 /2 i.d. x 12 Brass Ballast Tube (pre-drilled wing cores)
2-56 x 12 Threaded Rod & Control Horns
Detailed Instructions with detail diagrams
Extra photo building manual from California Sailplanes

JW parts List:

EPP foam wing with carbon spars
EPP foam fuse
Coroplast tail section
Hardware including rods and horns
Instruction manual


i wonder wich is more foamie?

JOe
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 10:46 PM
Ninja of the Nasty
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and i dont want to come off as mr negative.... great job flying that plane...

not too many 60" composites have jumped into the 150mph club.... really some great flying though reguardless of what it was....

JOe
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 11:05 PM
CaliforniaSailplanes.com
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Joined Dec 2002
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Not to be critical, but.....I've seen this kind of stuff happen anytime somebody unexpectedly wins a race or speed contest. There are all sorts of naysayers that come out whining and say either the plane wasn't right, or the pilot got lucky, the other "winning" pilots weren't there, or whatever.

Norm has been working toward this goal for a couple of years, repeatedly trying and refining clever designs. To me, it is great that the Electron continually evolves, it proves a dedication to innovation on Norm's part. While others may just keep selling the same old thing, he comes out with more and more great improvements.

The bottom line is to all... everybody has an equal chance to go out and beat Norm tomorrow... but for now, he and his design holds the record and deserves the kudos...

Steve
http://www.californiasailplanes.com
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Old Apr 19, 2005, 11:46 PM
Ninja of the Nasty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stegre
Not to be critical, but.....I've seen this kind of stuff happen anytime somebody unexpectedly wins a race or speed contest. There are all sorts of naysayers that come out whining and say either the plane wasn't right, or the pilot got lucky, the other "winning" pilots weren't there, or whatever.
i believe your refering to your warbird ISR races and your PSS fest speed dive... that why they have been banned from races... they dont meet the specs... they are stretched out racers that can only be known by what they are by the color scheme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stegre

Norm has been working toward this goal for a couple of years, repeatedly trying and refining clever designs. To me, it is great that the Electron continually evolves, it proves a dedication to innovation on Norm's part. While others may just keep selling the same old thing, he comes out with more and more great improvements.
congrats for working on it and improving this hobby, its a great thing to see something new come out like the booby and skua... but this electron is EVOLVING into a crunchy with EPP core...

JOe
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Old Apr 20, 2005, 12:11 AM
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San Diego
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Electron Parts LIST:

Kit Includes:

1/2 x 30ft Fiberglass Tape
???????????????????????
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Old Apr 20, 2005, 12:20 AM
CaliforniaSailplanes.com
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So California
Joined Dec 2002
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Joe...you are a cool guy and I appreciate your contributions as well as the good -spirited debates about topics here. But you do not have the facts.

The U2, the P-51D and the Ta152 ....They fit without question...to say they "didn't meet the spec" is completely misinformed... Norm went over those "original" rules with a fine-toothed comb and designed the plane accordingly. Then the rules were changed.

Personally I don't think the U2 is very far off scale and the important thing to remember is those planes were designed to fit the rules in existance at the time of the race. The rules were changed after it won... MY POINT EXACTLY

You are welcome to any opinion about the appearence you'd like, nobody ever claimed they were exact scale, but you are way off when you say they "didn't meet the spec".

As for the Electron... guys give it up.... it was faster... period. Anybody with an EPP plane other than the Electron should give it the due props and remove claim to the record.

PS... the fiberglass tape is laid 3 layers deep into the top and bottom spar slots (notice how slender (1/8 thick) the wood spars are). That is why the tape is included and used.

Steve
http://www.californiasailplanes.com
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Last edited by stegre; Apr 20, 2005 at 12:37 AM.
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Old Apr 20, 2005, 12:53 AM
Ninja of the Nasty
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im not a PSS guy but i can tell they are VERY VERY stretched.... and because of that they are not accepted in the warbird races...

fiberglass is not EPP, so what if i start wraping my EPP planes in fiberglass? is that still an foam record? the Extreeme is foam core... is that the foamie record holder then?

the thing is, this plane will get accepted by some as the foamie record holder because real rules and guidlines like the warbird races dont exist for the foamie DS record..... but maybe we can lay some groundrules now so i dont bag my m60 in carbon and call it a foamie record..

was it good flying? yes... is props due? of course.... but EPP RECORD? its questionable... and i for one dont count it and my website wont change reguarless of the email i have recieved

Joe
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Old Apr 20, 2005, 01:01 AM
Ninja of the Nasty
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i can tell ya 1 good thing thats coming out of this debate.... LOTS of people have peaked Intrest of taking this record down because they dont feel its an EPP plane..... i can say for sure that this record wont stand long.... so he better get back on that hill asap BECAUSE i know quite a few BIG name DS'ers that have had their intrest's peaked...

and steve, dont take this as a personal attack...because its not at all.... but seems like EVERYONE has a problem with tuffplanes products...

JOe
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Old Apr 20, 2005, 01:19 AM
CaliforniaSailplanes.com
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Geez... Joe... I don't take anything personally it's all a fun discussion to me....

I guess I can see that everyone who is getting whomped by the planes would have a problem with them

I too think it's great that others are going to go for the gold, when they do get it, I will be a gentleman and take down the "World's Fastest Foamie" label . Fair is fair.


Steve
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Last edited by stegre; Apr 20, 2005 at 01:25 AM.
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Old Apr 20, 2005, 01:23 AM
Ninja of the Nasty
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whomped by them? ok, im gonna go bag my m60 wing.... see ya in the record books

JOe
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