HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Nov 25, 2014, 12:23 PM
Registered User
United States, WA, Port Townsend
Joined Feb 2006
153 Posts
Thanks John. I really appreciate your devotion to sharing the rules with us on this forum.

I think I'm still not quite clear on whether or not there is a grey area about turning inside a boat to which you owe mark-room. I assumed that green's obligation to give yellow mark-room would take away her option to pass between the mark and the obstruction. The only options left are to duck yellow or turn short of the mark. In turning short of the mark, Green would break R18.2b. Therefore the only option which allows Green to avoid a foul is to duck Yellow, leaving room for red as required by both R19 and green's obligation to give red mark-room. I don't think there is any disagreement here.

My confusion stems from the description of the first incident:
"In the first part of the incident, RED and GREEN are DSQ under 18.2.b for failing to give mark room to YELLOW. GREEN may be exonerated under R21 as RED prevented GREEN from giving room."

I don't think Green can be exonerated under R21 because it only applies to boats sailing within the room or mark room to which they are entitled. However, I think that Red could be exonerated under R64.1a because she was compelled to break R18.2b by Green also broke R18.2b.

Reading Rule 21 again, I'm not it could be used to exonerated Red breaking 18.2b as Yellow is not "a boat required to give her that
room or mark-room". It seems that R21 could only apply between Yellow and either boat, or between Red and Green where Red would be exonerated if she breaks a rule of Section A, rule 15 or rule 16, or touches a mark (31). Notably absent from the list is R19.

So my conclusion so far is that Green and Red both break R18.2b. Red is exonerated under R64.1a. But later in the incident, Red fouls Green (R19) by not keeping clear of green at the obstruction (yellow) and rule 21 can't exonerate her for that. It's unclear to me whether Red could be exonerated a second time under R64.1a for breaking R19.

Are there any limitations placed on yellow relating to speed and timing when "she closes the door"? It seems like R21, might exonerate Yellow from breaking any of the applicable rules except 14. Though Rule 14 itself provides the method for exoneration. Edit: Case 63 seems applicable and the definition of proper course seems to prevent yellow, the boat entitled to mark-room, from luffing.

Thanks again, does anyone else out there enjoy the process of understanding how to apply the rules?
lhurt is offline Find More Posts by lhurt
Last edited by lhurt; Nov 25, 2014 at 01:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Nov 25, 2014, 01:36 PM
Registered User
United States, MO, St. Louis
Joined Jan 2014
221 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhurt View Post
Thanks again, does anyone else out there enjoy the process of understanding how to apply the rules?
I do.

With out listing all the rule numbers it seems to me that once the red and green boat got inside yellow (while inside the zone) their only choice was to go inside the mark and loop around. Before they were actually overlapped (while near or inside the zone) they had the choice of going behind yellow. So there is a short time when the leeward boat could have gone behind and then when it was too late the windward boat had to go inside the mark but leave room for the leeward boat.

So both inside boats were wrong at various times, but in fact neither did anything so they should both be DSQ'd.
The Enigma is offline Find More Posts by The Enigma
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2014, 01:41 PM
Registered User
Joined Jul 2011
124 Posts
My (probably wrong) take on the incident.
At position 1 neither red or green is overlapped on yellow so neither can claim mark room from her.
At this point it appears that both red and green have room to pass across yellows stern and concede the mark.
If green decides to do this then she must also give red room to pass yellows stern if required.
As the situation developes both boats are clearly going to chance the inside route.
Even at this tage they have the opportunity to pass the mark on the wrong side and give yellow the mark.
Once again I would suggest that if green decided to do this then red must give her room to do so if requested.
As green made no attempt to concede the mark to yellow at position 1 or 2 when she appeared to have opportunity to do so nor asked for room from red to pass the mark on the wrong side she should be DSQ.
Red made no request to green for room to pass astearn of yellow nor made any attempt to pass the mark on the wrong side so should also be DSQ.
Of course if red and green had been overlapped on yellow a little further from the mark and there was doubt wether yellow had broken it, maybe with the boats being a long way off or viewed from astearn then things would be a little different.
Psychosis is offline Find More Posts by Psychosis
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2014, 01:57 PM
Registered User
United States, WA, Port Townsend
Joined Feb 2006
153 Posts
The only way for me to learn more about the rules is to try to cite them appropriately. It's time consuming and difficult, but repeated reading of the rules language seems to help my understanding. I suppose those around me are a better judge of my rules understanding.

I also think it's fine and appropriate to take the risk of breaking a rule once in a while (especially in model boat sailing) provided that you know your taking a risk and that you behave as a sportsman and take your penalty if the risk doesn't pay off. Similarly, I try to just take a penalty when protested and discuss it afterwards. This is especially true if I'm not the ROW boat. Anybody have a different take?
lhurt is offline Find More Posts by lhurt
Last edited by lhurt; Nov 25, 2014 at 09:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2014, 05:31 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Canada, BC, Strathcona
Joined Jul 2011
536 Posts
There is one big difference between exoneration under R 21 and/or R 14 compared to R 64.1.a. That difference is that R 64.1.a exoneration may be awarded ONLY by a protest committee in a hearing. R21 and R 14 provide for on-course exoneration when the conditions are met.

I am suggesting that in the first part of the incident, that Green is exonerated by R21 as she is sailing under the room provided by R 19 with Red as the ‘give room’ boat. If Red were not there, Green would have more room to avoid Yellow.

There is no ‘grey area’. Green and Red were clear astern of Yellow when she touched the zone – the rules don’t care which way they turn – they have no business going in there and do so at their own risk.

Is there a limitation on Yellow turning up to round the mark? I don’t think so – at P 2 she can start to turn and pass as close to the mark as possible – and the other boats have to keep clear. Note that R 21 explicitly exonerates Yellow from breaking R 16 (Altering course).

I think Psychosis’s summary is good.
hiljoball is online now Find More Posts by hiljoball
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2014, 09:24 PM
Registered User
United States, WA, Port Townsend
Joined Feb 2006
153 Posts
John,

You mentioned the case was sent to ISAF Q&A Rapid Response. In the even that it doesn't get added to the case book, is there an easy way to find out the facts of the case, beyond the sketch, and also the outcome of the ruling? Seems like a precedent setting case.

Luke
lhurt is offline Find More Posts by lhurt
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2014, 10:50 AM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Canada, BC, Strathcona
Joined Jul 2011
536 Posts
Hi Luke,
I have no more info. If it gets added tot he Q&A or the Case Book, I'll let you know.

John
hiljoball is online now Find More Posts by hiljoball
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Question about the Brushless 2226/2300 KV Easysky motor question (dolphin/cessna) twincobra Micro Ready-to-Fly 0 Feb 11, 2013 01:49 AM
Discussion AMA ALES Rules Question Roger Rocket Electric Competition Soaring-F5J/ALES/e-Soaring 7 Feb 01, 2013 05:33 PM
Discussion I know, I know stupid question about about World Tech Hercules Helo drtuvoc Coaxial Helicopters 1 Jan 26, 2013 09:40 PM
Discussion question about this sail plane munen123 Electric Sailplanes 8 Dec 29, 2006 05:52 AM