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Old Apr 09, 2003, 09:50 AM
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How much thrust for unlimited vertical?

I was wondering how much more thrust than the planes weight to go vertical? I have an NSP gnat(fun fly airplane) and it weighs about 8.5-9 oz. Will 11 ounces of thrust give it unlimited vertical? Thanks,

-Superman
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 05:46 PM
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try to get about 25oz of thrust to see it climb; you will need bigger eyes, or better yet a pair of binocular to keep it in sight :-)
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 06:40 PM
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Superman,
You're probably pretty close at 11 oz. of static thrust to climb very quickly, running the number on Motocalc with a different airframe called for 11.5 oz. But, I don't know how draggy the Gnat is so you're in the ballpark.

"Vertical" is 1:1 thrust to weight plus the thrust required to overcome drag.

Motocalc has been very useful to me in predicting how to set up a plane before spending any money on parts and has been well worth the cost.
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 07:15 PM
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Unlimited vertical doesn't exist on parkflyers. You need thrust at speed and capacity for extended vertical climbs. The thrust has to also be at a speed high enough to give your plane lift. You can get a whole lot of thrust with a low pitch, but it won't move the plane fast enough to keep it in the air. More factors than just thrust have to be considered for flying and performance.

Good luck,
Chuck
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck
Unlimited vertical doesn't exist on parkflyers
I guess it partly depends on how you define "parkflyer," but I disagree with this statement based on my X250 powered by a Hacker B40-10S geared on 8XCP1300 Nicads with an APC 11X7 E prop. I fly it in parks, and it has what I call unlimited vertical, i.e., it goes straight up for as long as I can keep a good enough view of it to keep it going straight up, so I consider it a parkflyer with unlimited vertical. The plane weighs 30 oz., and P-calc gives it 51.5 oz. of static thrust, and 31 oz. of in flight thrust.

Neil
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 07:54 PM
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I disagree with Chuck, I have actually seen this model, the Gnat have unlimited vertical with a brushless setup. I just dont want to spend the money. It is definatly a parkflyer, 36 inch wing and 8 oz is a parkflyer to me but correct me if i am wrong.

-Supeman
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck
Unlimited vertical doesn't exist on parkflyers.
I had to pick myself up from laughing after this statement. You've yet to see my Miniflash fly. With a 7 mph or so stall speed and 25 mph top speed it's very much a parkflyer, but I can fly vertically unlimited at 2/3 throttle.

Martin
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 08:38 PM
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I have to agree with Chuck: even the most obscenely overpowered plane will have to tumble back down out of control once you've climbed beyond visual range. Definitely not unlimited.
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 08:50 PM
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Bumblebees aren't supposed to be able to fly and parkflyers can't go vertical.....I guess we're both violating the laws of physics...gosh I hope I don't get arrested after the RZ300 arrives
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Old Apr 09, 2003, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck
Unlimited vertical doesn't exist on parkflyers. You need thrust at speed and capacity for extended vertical climbs. The thrust has to also be at a speed high enough to give your plane lift. You can get a whole lot of thrust with a low pitch, but it won't move the plane fast enough to keep it in the air. More factors than just thrust have to be considered for flying and performance.

Good luck,
Chuck
Uh... then I guess a helicopter doesn't fly then?

Wing lift has nothing to do with unlimited vertical. If what Chuck is saying is true then his definition of unlimited vertical will actually be a 45 degree line from the ground as the prop pulls the airplane vertically and the wing pulls it horizontally. During a vertical manuver the prop is the only thing holding the plane in the air.

I also fail to see why the fact that it is parkflyer has anything to do with it. Last I checked they were govered by the same rules of physics as every other airplane on the planet.

There are plenty of parkflyers that have unlimited vertical. Size and sight has nothing to do with unlimited vertical as the definition has nothing to do with the abilities of the pilot. The only thing that could have an effect is the thinning of the atmosphere.... That of course is taking the definition to the absurd. I've got several parkflyers in my fleet that have unlimited vertical. If you ever stop by Tuscaloosa Alabama, I'll be happy to introduce you to the wonderful world of brushless..


-Jim
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Old Apr 10, 2003, 12:32 AM
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Boy, did I step in the fire ants.

Sorry, guys, I stand by my statement. Unlimited means just that - without limits or restrictions. Unless you have a military budget, nope, no unlimited. Maybe outta sight.
I was trying to make the point that thrust is not the ONLY thing that makes an airplane go up.
And I know wing lift has nothing to do with vertical. You can lift a brick with enough power; how high you lift it depends on capacity or stored energy.

Who said a helicopter can't fly? Wasn't me.
So, there.
Ph-h-h-h-h-t.

Chuck(in flame suit)
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Old Apr 10, 2003, 07:56 AM
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Hey Chuck: You've got me scratching my head. I don't have a parkflyer with unlimited vertical, but I do have a couple indoor flyers which I consider unlimited, but I'm confused by your definition.

No flame intended, but are you saying that it must achieve the same speed vertical that it can horizontal? Is that the difference?

In that case I can understand your point. They must get above stall speed vertically to get the control surfaces working properly. Is that it?
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Old Apr 10, 2003, 08:51 AM
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Once the thrust to weight ratio is equal or greater then 1:1 you can technically say you have unlimited vertical. In truth, you must have enough extra thrust to allow for some amount of thrust to be redirected from vertical by control surfaces. This extra amount will be determined by alot of factors -- plane design and CG having the most effect, with flying conditions and pilot ability following.

If you are considering making or buying an airplane with unlimited vertical thrust, you should seriously consider a design that would allow you to enjoy that experience to the fullest. If you are lucky enough to have fine motor control skills in both the craft and your thumbs, try for something in a 3D design (miniflash is what I am now building), or if not maybe something more crashable.

Acer will soon be releasing his new Speedwing 400 which can be setup for unlimited vertical. This design will allow less then 3D performance, but makes up quite nicely in its ability to hold together when the thumbs forget where they are (or were) suppose to be. This is the design I have been waiting for, as I mostly fall into the ladder category but still want to do things like slow, low flybys with the ability to pull straight vertical, accelerate and do rolls up to the ceiling.

-Rodger
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Old Apr 10, 2003, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck
Sorry, guys, I stand by my statement. Unlimited means just that - without limits or restrictions.
If your point was just semantics, I'll pass on the debate. Nothing's unlimited, except maybe the bounds of the universe and Congress' desire to raise taxes.

"Unlimited Vertical" in the context of my experience in model aircraft would mean the ability to pull a vertical line from level flight and continue up at a slower, yet constant speed. Other than sagging battery, the only thing that would limit the vertical line would be the diminishing atmospheric pressure at increasing altitudes.

Karl
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Old Apr 10, 2003, 11:01 AM
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For all practical purposes 0.8:1 and 1:1 feel about the same to me... I have found that having at least 1.2-1.35:1 thrust to weight will put me in that "happy place".
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