SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Sep 05, 2012, 01:56 AM
Registered User
EndOfDays's Avatar
Austria, Niederösterr., Eggenburg
Joined Jan 2010
1,420 Posts
@lucamaxco

I don´t use the S800, and I don´t think that the S800 is designed to carry a bigger cam with bigger gimbal, since it is already at the limit with the current Z15. (I really tested the limits of the S800 )

best regards

Ferdinand
EndOfDays is offline Find More Posts by EndOfDays
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:05 AM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2009
150 Posts
I should add that above considerations came from an offer I have made to a large video production company (that already own heli and multirotors for aerial footage) for a S800+Z15 plus accessories, spare batteries, Graupner Hott radio, battery charger and accessories, the total was around 10.000 euro, but even if money was not a problem they consider that for that money the quality of the Nex cameras was not enough to allow the expense. They said that for that money they need "at least " a canon 5D.

For me to use a reflex camera for aerial video makes no sense but one should consider also the point of view of customers and the perception they may have of the value of the gear used to realise the final product .
For them, using a NEX will not allow to request enough money for the final product even if this one , done with the NEX, would be perfect.
lucamaxco is offline Find More Posts by lucamaxco
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:10 AM
Registered User
Australia, SA, Renmark West
Joined Sep 2011
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOfDays View Post
@photoship one

.....

@RedSky

That would be possible, but I think I will never disassemble a Z15 that far.

best regards

Ferdinand
I don't blame you!

However, DJI might one day provide the hardware. High definition still panoramas are certainly an intriguing possibility, one I intend to explore myself when my gear is up and running. The limitin factor is the 16mm Sony lens which is OK for video but softish for stills.

I noticed on some of DJI's early pics that they were using a Zeiss 21mm F4.5 lens on the NEX mounted to the Z-15 - that would be a lot sharper than the Sony 16mm and a better focal length for stitching too.
RedSky is offline Find More Posts by RedSky
Last edited by RedSky; Sep 05, 2012 at 02:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:18 AM
Registered User
EndOfDays's Avatar
Austria, Niederösterr., Eggenburg
Joined Jan 2010
1,420 Posts
I thought this would be an easy way to blow up the resolution from 3000(vertical) to 4500

Here a pano made some days ago:


And a detail of it:


So with cam in "landscape" this works pretty well.

best regards

Ferdinand
EndOfDays is offline Find More Posts by EndOfDays
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:28 AM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2009
150 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOfDays View Post
@lucamaxco

I don´t use the S800, and I don´t think that the S800 is designed to carry a bigger cam with bigger gimbal, since it is already at the limit with the current Z15. (I really tested the limits of the S800 )

best regards

Ferdinand
This is a big surprise Ferdinnad .
S800 specs if I well remember talk about 2kg payload for 16 minutes so I thought that with shorter flight autonomy , lets say 12 minuts , the payload might allow to use a 5D but you may be right I just see now on Dj website taht the Z15 weight around 1250 grams.
Wow ...
I do not understand how the S800 might be so poorly efficient , to lift 1600 grams (Z15+Nex) I would use a 8 motor setup and with a 10.000mah 4S it would hover for 18 minutes , with my hexa it would hover for 14 minutes with a 6600mah battery.
Perhaps the S800 design with motor angle towards the center to increase stability lower general efficiency.
lucamaxco is offline Find More Posts by lucamaxco
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:36 AM
Registered User
Australia, SA, Renmark West
Joined Sep 2011
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ....they consider that for that money the quality of the Nex cameras was not enough to allow the expense. They said that for that money they need "at least " a canon 5D.

For me to use a reflex camera for aerial video makes no sense but one should consider also the point of view of customers and the [U
perception[/U] they may have of the value of the gear used to realise the final product .
For them, using a NEX will not allow to request enough money for the final product even if this one , done with the NEX, would be perfect.
I tend to agree - the Canon 5D is not noticeably better than the NEX-5. Both suffer from having to undersample ovesized (in terms of pixel count) sensors. I've been doing some minor video work with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and the output from the Panasonic TM900 I've been using is streets ahead of what they get from their Canon SLRs. I really can't understand the preoccupation with using SLRs out of their element for video work - it only makes sense if you want big differential focus effects. In every other respect they are inferior to dedicated video cameras costing a fraction of the 5D price.

However, you do have to provide what the customer wants and if they have a mindset that NEX output isn't good enough, then either convince them or move to another customer. The ones who want 6kg of camera and gimbal flown can hire a helicopter.
RedSky is offline Find More Posts by RedSky
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:36 AM
Registered User
EndOfDays's Avatar
Austria, Niederösterr., Eggenburg
Joined Jan 2010
1,420 Posts
@lucamaxco

The S800 is not "poorly efficient", it is just too heavy (mainly due to the fact that you can disassemble it). If you have a copter that can lift the Z15 with Sony Nex and hover for 18 min on 4S10000 you should make a video and post it (or the hexa with 14 min with 4S6600mah).
Such results would be much appreciated.

best regards

Ferdinand
EndOfDays is offline Find More Posts by EndOfDays
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:43 AM
Registered User
Australia, SA, Renmark West
Joined Sep 2011
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOfDays View Post
@lucamaxco

I don´t use the S800, and I don´t think that the S800 is designed to carry a bigger cam with bigger gimbal, since it is already at the limit with the current Z15. (I really tested the limits of the S800 )

best regards

Ferdinand
Yes, Ferdinand, you're quite right.

It's why the octo I'm building has an 1100mm motorbase and clearance for 16 inch props - it's present motors won't swing props that big but I'm leaving room for development.
RedSky is offline Find More Posts by RedSky
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:45 AM
Registered User
Australia, SA, Renmark West
Joined Sep 2011
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOfDays View Post
@lucamaxco

The S800 is not "poorly efficient", it is just too heavy (mainly due to the fact that you can disassemble it). If you have a copter that can lift the Z15 with Sony Nex and hover for 18 min on 4S10000 you should make a video and post it (or the hexa with 14 min with 4S6600mah).
Such results would be much appreciated.

best regards

Ferdinand
Moral: Don't mess with Ferdinand, he really knows his stuff and never makes claims he can't back up.
RedSky is offline Find More Posts by RedSky
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 02:53 AM
jab
Unregistered User
Joined Aug 2007
1,070 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucamaxco View Post
<snip> but even if money was not a problem they consider that for that money the quality of the Nex cameras was not enough to allow the expense. They said that for that money they need "at least " a canon 5D.
That is just equipment snobbery with no facts to back it up with. For aerial video there is no reason to expect better performance from a 5D. In fact I suspect it might well turn out to be the other way around.

First let's look at the sensors. 5D has a 35mm and NEX-5 has a 23mm (comparable to Nikon DX). 35mm is great for shallow depth footage, but this is pretty much useless when shooting from a distance up in the air.

Then let's look at the signal processing and video compression. 5D has sub-par signal processing when scaling down the sensor data for video, resulting in aliasing and moire. There is also problems with rolling shutter since the sensors was primarily meant for taking photos. Lack of processing power also limit the video to 30fps. Basically the video feature in the 5D mark II was a last minute hack, resulting in limited functionality. The mark III also has the same limitations but now it is done strategical to prevent out-competing their own professional video cameras. The one really good thing about the new 5D mark III, is that it now supports high-bitrate AVC-Intra compression. Making it ideal for storing shots with lot's of movement in them. But sadly again the 30fps limitation makes the usage somewhat limited.
Nex on the other hand is built with video in mind. Image scaling and processing for video is better. Same goes for rolling shutter. And there is enough power to do 60fps 1080p h.264 compression. But sadly there is no Intra frame compression support. Only 28mbit AVC. But if/when there is a high bit-rate firmware hack made available for this camera, the results should be truly outstanding.

Lenses is where the 5D wins hands down. So far there are a limited option of lenses for the NEX and the 16mm pancake (on paper perfect for aerial video) is a bit soft. Hopefully there will be better optics for the NEX in the near future.

But the better 5D lens quality comes with a price, and that is weight. Weight is the number one enemy when doing multicopter video. Less weight means longer flight times and more stable video (easier for the gimbal to compensate having to move less mass).

So while the 5D is a better stills photo camera, up in the air everything points to the NEX being the better video camera.
jab is offline Find More Posts by jab
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 05:24 AM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2009
150 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndOfDays View Post
@lucamaxco

The S800 is not "poorly efficient", it is just too heavy (mainly due to the fact that you can disassemble it). If you have a copter that can lift the Z15 with Sony Nex and hover for 18 min on 4S10000 you should make a video and post it (or the hexa with 14 min with 4S6600mah).
Such results would be much appreciated.

best regards

Ferdinand
I have no Z15 but for the equivalent weight of Z15 + Nex5 , 1600 grams , the datas I gave are real.
You do not believe me if you do not see a video of it ?
lucamaxco is offline Find More Posts by lucamaxco
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 05:26 AM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2009
150 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSky View Post
Moral: Don't mess with Ferdinand, he really knows his stuff and never makes claims he can't back up.
Do I ?
lucamaxco is offline Find More Posts by lucamaxco
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 08:18 AM
FPV FTW
Austin, TX
Joined Dec 2004
157 Posts
Battery question for the S800/Zenmuse

What battery/batteries are you guys using and what kind of flight times are you getting?

I am thinking about getting a 8000mah 30C 6S from hobbyking to keep it simple. Will 30c be enough? I see people saying this pulls about 30amps at hover.

Thoughts and links appreciated.
logicwins is offline Find More Posts by logicwins
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 08:55 AM
Ready to fly MRs
Sid3ways's Avatar
Swanton, OH
Joined Jul 2007
5,068 Posts
I run the 6S 8000 30C lipos from HK and get about 16 minutes of flight time with the Z15 & 5N
Sid3ways is online now Find More Posts by Sid3ways
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 05, 2012, 09:15 AM
Video Juggernaut
Wingbreaker's Avatar
FL
Joined Nov 2003
2,687 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jab View Post
That is just equipment snobbery with no facts to back it up with. For aerial video there is no reason to expect better performance from a 5D. In fact I suspect it might well turn out to be the other way around.

First let's look at the sensors. 5D has a 35mm and NEX-5 has a 23mm (comparable to Nikon DX). 35mm is great for shallow depth footage, but this is pretty much useless when shooting from a distance up in the air.

Then let's look at the signal processing and video compression. 5D has sub-par signal processing when scaling down the sensor data for video, resulting in aliasing and moire. There is also problems with rolling shutter since the sensors was primarily meant for taking photos. Lack of processing power also limit the video to 30fps. Basically the video feature in the 5D mark II was a last minute hack, resulting in limited functionality. The mark III also has the same limitations but now it is done strategical to prevent out-competing their own professional video cameras. The one really good thing about the new 5D mark III, is that it now supports high-bitrate AVC-Intra compression. Making it ideal for storing shots with lot's of movement in them. But sadly again the 30fps limitation makes the usage somewhat limited.
Nex on the other hand is built with video in mind. Image scaling and processing for video is better. Same goes for rolling shutter. And there is enough power to do 60fps 1080p h.264 compression. But sadly there is no Intra frame compression support. Only 28mbit AVC. But if/when there is a high bit-rate firmware hack made available for this camera, the results should be truly outstanding.

Lenses is where the 5D wins hands down. So far there are a limited option of lenses for the NEX and the 16mm pancake (on paper perfect for aerial video) is a bit soft. Hopefully there will be better optics for the NEX in the near future.

But the better 5D lens quality comes with a price, and that is weight. Weight is the number one enemy when doing multicopter video. Less weight means longer flight times and more stable video (easier for the gimbal to compensate having to move less mass).

So while the 5D is a better stills photo camera, up in the air everything points to the NEX being the better video camera.

comparing a 5d to an nex5n is like comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different tools with different specs. How can you compare a full frame to and APS-C, you can't. the full frame will usually be better, then you have to consider the latitude of each sensor, codec and resolution and a billion other things.

The nex does have lots of lens options. I use a voigtlander 15mm m mount on mine and I get better results. Here is a recent shoot I did with an nex5n with voigtlander lens and and 7D with rokinon, L-series and Zeiss lens. can you see major difference in shots? maybe if you look close. I bet nobody could guess which lens is which besides the aerials. the cameras look pretty matched up too. it is obvious i used the nex5n for air though as I dont have a rig to pull my 7d yet.

Cameras are what you make of them and what your clients are willing to accept. I still get clients asking to use HVX200's, Canon XL1s, and some other out of date cameras. But quite frankly I could shoot a decent flick on a phone. it is not the camera, it is the operator. Camera stats are only important depending on the final output you need or desire. Most people dont know what they are looking at. As long is it shot and lit well and put together in an entertaining edit, it will go over.

OH, and no way is an nex5n better than a 5d for video, no way. The FS100 is better video camera than the 5D, yes not the nex5n. Youre right the nex5n is a better budget cam for aerials but technically 5d wins.


And a full frame sensor doesnt make it difficult for aerial shots. Just stop down your lens to f8 or more and your depth of field increases greatly especially with a 16mm and below. I see some kick ass aerial footage on here shot with scarlets and reds, both full frame.
visconti (2 min 52 sec)


BTW DOF is determined by these factors:

Sensor size
focal length
aperture
subject camera distance

You can always control your focus, no matter what camera you use pretty much.
Wingbreaker is online now Find More Posts by Wingbreaker
Last edited by Wingbreaker; Sep 05, 2012 at 09:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion DJI F550 Hex Build, with 2-axis NEX-5N/GH2 Gimbal... GGoodrum Multirotor Talk 9560 May 27, 2014 11:06 PM
New Product CLD 2/3-Axis FPV Gimbal for mini cameras and GoPro crd FPV Talk 9 Jul 13, 2012 10:42 PM
Discussion DJI Spread Wings S800 and Zenmuse Z15 prices are out! tpnitro Multirotor Talk 120 Jun 19, 2012 01:27 AM
Wanted 3 axis gimbal on a budget =) Vyas FPV Equipment (FS/W) 3 Mar 20, 2012 10:57 AM
New Product CLD 2/3-Axis FPV Gimbal for mini cameras and GoPro crd Aerial Photography 2 Sep 12, 2011 06:44 PM