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Old Nov 13, 2012, 06:35 PM
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WhalleyB0Y's Avatar
Canada, BC, Surrey
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Over in the Velocity/ EDFHobbies 2950kv motor thread other members have been referring to these motors as counterfeit Arc motors. It was also said that the "Real Deal" wouldn't be having problems such as mine do. While this may be the case a lot of other people have been having great success with these motors. At what point should I quit on these? And while I had all the best intentions of getting the good stuff, efflux rc has been out of stock on the "Real Deal" since May when I was first acquiring my parts and I can't find Arc anywhere else.

I called Jack @ edfhobbies and referred him to the video I made. He was also confused about what was causing the problem and had thought that maybe the thrust of the fan was pulling on the pigtails of the motor being how the esc was strapped to it. This seemed like a plausible idea because with the fan removed during the bench test, the motor had produced no sparks. I mentioned that perhaps the fan was pulling the entire rotor and causing internal friction. I also explained how one of the screws was stripped and now it would be difficult to remove the motor from the fan. I had offered to send the motor and fan back to him so that he can inspect it.

Now the problem is what to do with it now? He doesn't actually have any more of these motors in stock and had offered to exchange it with a Cyclone 2800's. He also doesn't have any more WeMo fans either and is hoping he doesn't need to replace mine. I told him I knew nothing about Cyclone motors and I wanted to do my research before committing to that offer. (Im using these in a twin setup and I really want the fans to match so I am not very keen on that idea.) Should I send both of them back and ask for a refund or should I wait on new stock to eventually come in? It would be nice to quit while I am ahead but I really I am not.

I am so beeping frustrated with this whole thing and I can't keep throwing money on the fire.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:13 PM
it wasn't me flying that plane
Hover or die's Avatar
United States, NC, Wilmington
Joined Mar 2011
704 Posts
Whalley,
I do not think he sells knockoffs or certainly didnt last year...
The motor should come in a square plastic tube with a hard foam/rubber holding the motor in a slot cut in the foam..
I think the mention of arc in the writeup(on his site) was just a mistake that has not been corrected...if your motor looks like the one in the pics on the site you are probably ok...might be better to send your motor/motors back to velocity for repair yourself as I am doing...They are strong motors but mine did give up on me and will be repaired...The folks at velocity seem to be good people from my comm so Im going to see how it goes just sending mine in for repair...
Before you make a decision maybe give Gary a call and see what he might have for you....At least it will damn sure run when you get it...
Im surprized you havent beat it all to scrap pieces...
Also it will be your last motor/fan money you will have to spend on your jet to get it flying...effluxrc.com
Give him a call or email...
Man,
All I can say at this point is good luck...It has GOT to get better............Chris
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hover or die View Post
Whalley,
I do not think he sells knockoffs or certainly didnt last year...
The motor should come in a square plastic tube with a hard foam/rubber holding the motor in a slot cut in the foam..
I think the mention of arc in the writeup(on his site) was just a mistake that has not been corrected...if your motor looks like the one in the pics on the site you are probably ok...might be better to send your motor/motors back to velocity for repair yourself as I am doing...They are strong motors but mine did give up on me and will be repaired...The folks at velocity seem to be good people from my comm so Im going to see how it goes just sending mine in for repair...
Before you make a decision maybe give Gary a call and see what he might have for you....At least it will damn sure run when you get it...
Im surprized you havent beat it all to scrap pieces...
Also it will be your last motor/fan money you will have to spend on your jet to get it flying...Velocityrc.com
Give him a call or email...
Man,
All I can say at this point is good luck...It has GOT to get better............Chris
Man, I really don't know. They do not look anything like whats in the picture of the website. I visited velocity-rc.com and they don't have a 2950kv motor listed on their site to compare pictures with either.

Mine look like this:

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They came in a bubble wrap bag, no case whatsoever. No labels or any markings on the motor itself. Both the words Velocity and Arc is used in the marketing on the website. To be honest I don't think they were even made by Velocity and I would feel awkward asking them to fix these.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:46 PM
"Take Off" eh!
vettster's Avatar
Canada, ON, Beeton
Joined Aug 2008
3,103 Posts
If the screws were to hit the armature as it spins..it would most likely cut all the winding and the motor would not work at all.

The bearings are #$%^#d.

Try this.. take the motor out of the shroud and oil the bearings. Then put it all back together with the fan and run it up. Even if the oil only last for a short while, and no sparks are produced, you will know what the problem was. The reason you pay more for a solid motor like ARC is because they use Titanium bearing vrs stainless steel
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vettster View Post
If the screws were to hit the armature as it spins..it would most likely cut all the winding and the motor would not work at all.

The bearings are #$%^#d.

Try this.. take the motor out of the shroud and oil the bearings. Then put it all back together with the fan and run it up. Even if the oil only last for a short while, and no sparks are produced, you will know what the problem was. The reason you pay more for a solid motor like ARC is because they use Titanium bearing vrs stainless steel
I not sure how the screws would even cause this problem. The screws enter the motor end cap directly over the windings, and the windings ARE the stator in this brushless inrunner. Therefore they are not rotating. The magnets are the armature in this case and they are whats rotating in between the motor screws.

Cooked bearings seem like a likely cause of sparks, maybe worth me looking into. I have some lithium grease...
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 10:23 PM
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Joined Oct 2004
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titanium bearings? Doubtful. Ceramic maybe but not titanium. Maybe titanium carbide coating. Titanium is wonderful stuff but steel works just fine for bearings. You can harden the cr@p out of most alloy steels. Titanium not so much. Stainless steels can't be hardened as much either.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 06:11 AM
it wasn't me flying that plane
Hover or die's Avatar
United States, NC, Wilmington
Joined Mar 2011
704 Posts
Ok Whalley,
Your motors are VERY suspect!
They look nothing like a velocity and someone has some "splainin'" to do I think...
You payed for Velocity motors and thats what you should have!
I have a feeling he will not be getting anymore motors from them as all of this makes people feel uneasy...Your motors should have blue endcaps,never seen one otherwise..
Also I value Vettsters opinions here as he has tons of experience...I personally love the motors as it seems easily as strong as my HET 1w40(ultra-hot motor)
Heres a few pics of my motor for you to check out and the package it came in....
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 11:16 AM
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I am not looking to pick a fight with anyone but someone is going to be held accountable for these motors. I have written to Velocity-rc to determine wether or not edfhobbies is selling them or if there is false deceitful marketing on their website. I think the best thing for me to do at this point is to pursue a full refund for all these motors and fans that edfhobbies has mounted and balanced for me that have burnt up and failed. I hope Jack will see the light and do the right thing.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 11:26 AM
"Take Off" eh!
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Canada, ON, Beeton
Joined Aug 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrb75 View Post
titanium bearings? Doubtful. Ceramic maybe but not titanium. Maybe titanium carbide coating. Titanium is wonderful stuff but steel works just fine for bearings. You can harden the cr@p out of most alloy steels. Titanium not so much. Stainless steels can't be hardened as much either.
In this cheap motor they are stainless or steel bearings. Hardened steel only stays hardened if they are not heated up. Heat them up with say...the lack of lubrication causing friction and they become soft real quick. (hense the sparks) I highly doubt that ARC is using Ceramic bearings. If they did the motor would cost over $200. Arc is using Titanium from what I read elsewhere, and I can verifiy by past experience. Its rated for 6s and in the 3 years Ive used the ARC motor(the same motor), it has been ran on nothing but 8s,9s and even 10s But its still going. This cheap motor couldnt even handle being run up on the bench. Its most likely steel or stainless and in either case its worthless!

WhalleyB0Y Quit wasting your time and money and buy 2 ARC 28-58 1T motors and go fly! http://lightflightrc.com/
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 11:46 AM
It's like an addiction!
Downwind3Zero's Avatar
NY, Rochester
Joined Oct 2003
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I agree with Vettster! I have used the ARC's in different fans with different loads and cell counts - and they just keep going.
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 01:48 PM
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I had been taking a break from this build while I was pursuing a Paypal refund from Jack at edfhobbies.com for all these bunk motors and his bogus balancing services. Despite the fraudulent website marketing and copyright infringements Jack still had won the dispute and will not need to issue me a refund. I suppose he had also inadvertently won the right to sell his knockoff motors as Velocity-RC/Arc manufactured products complete with defective bearings. And Paypal need not protect the buyer from fraud. Where's the accountability?

Rather than dwell on the past... I found that there is no better cure for anger and frustration than some reckless spending on more parts. I decide to take another recommendation from RcGroups and get some new quality motors and esc's. I will order in a pair of Arc 28-58-1 motors with a pair of Hobbywing platinum 100A speed controllers. I will savage a pair of WeMo's from the edfhobbies junk pile and mount and balance them myself.
Hopefully by then I can finally be off to the races!
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 04:24 PM
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United States, CA, San Jose
Joined Jan 2007
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Sorry to hear all the trouble you have to go through, but at least you got yourself a kick ass avatar. Seriously, that's a very good shot at a rare moment.
Anyway, I think your CC100 lite should be still fine? It's the motor that messed up, not the ESC. Also, the wemo fan is factory pre-balanced to a very high accuracy, and the ARC is a high quality in-runner, so the combo does not require any additional balance at all.
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nerv View Post
Sorry to hear all the trouble you have to go through, but at least you got yourself a kick ass avatar. Seriously, that's a very good shot at a rare moment.
Anyway, I think your CC100 lite should be still fine? It's the motor that messed up, not the ESC. Also, the wemo fan is factory pre-balanced to a very high accuracy, and the ARC is a high quality in-runner, so the combo does not require any additional balance at all.
Yes your right, my CC Lite's are ok and there is nothing wrong with them. Well except for when I mount them on the motor leads behind the fan. Apparently the forces in there will strain the motor wiring with all that thrust. As a precaution, I am going to move the controllers out of the exhaust ducts and flush mount the new HobbyWings to the fuse body just in front of the main gear wells. My cooling methods have changed and now I need heat-sinks on the controllers to do the job. Surely the CC Lite's will be used in another project one day.
I also would agree that the WeMo fans should not require any balancing but when I mount everything together I will be checking for balancing just to be on the safe side.
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 06:32 PM
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the wemo's will need to be assembled properly and balanced like all fans, the difference is how long it takes
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:02 AM
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United Kingdom, England, Cobham
Joined Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhalleyB0Y View Post
I had been taking a break from this build while I was pursuing a Paypal refund from Jack at edfhobbies.com for all these bunk motors and his bogus balancing services. Despite the fraudulent website marketing and copyright infringements Jack still had won the dispute and will not need to issue me a refund. I suppose he had also inadvertently won the right to sell his knockoff motors as Velocity-RC/Arc manufactured products complete with defective bearings. And Paypal need not protect the buyer from fraud. Where's the accountability?

Rather than dwell on the past... I found that there is no better cure for anger and frustration than some reckless spending on more parts. I decide to take another recommendation from RcGroups and get some new quality motors and esc's. I will order in a pair of Arc 28-58-1 motors with a pair of Hobbywing platinum 100A speed controllers. I will savage a pair of WeMo's from the edfhobbies junk pile and mount and balance them myself.
Hopefully by then I can finally be off to the races!
I agree that the ARC's are great quality motors - I have one in a Wemo and it pulls around 2KW on good packs, also using Hobbywing 100A ESC. My only concern in your case is that you will be adding a fair bit of weight to your model. The ARCs weigh around 60g more (each) than, say, a HET 2W-20. Then there is the Hobbywing 100A ESC's which are fairly heavy in themselves and you will require 10 or 12 AWG wire which will all add significant weight. I honestly don't have any twin 70mm experience, but those that do will tell you that a lighter setup for a model of your size will be more suitable. Twin configuration does bring about some interesting efficiencies over a single and you really don't require 3+KW in a model of this size. 2KW will be more than enough IMO and you could achieve that with a much lighter powerplant.

Jacques
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