New Products Flash Sale
Thread Tools
Old Sep 01, 2015, 01:15 PM
ryan_m is offline
Find More Posts by ryan_m
doh!
ryan_m's Avatar
United States, AR, Little Rock
Joined May 2006
4,856 Posts
Anybody have any experience with this motor:
http://www.redwingrc.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=553

was reading a review of the new redwing mxsbach, and Gary/Gyro used that motor on it. He was getting about 3100 watts out of it on a 12s setup. Certainly an attractive price.
ryan_m is offline Find More Posts by ryan_m
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Sep 01, 2015, 01:19 PM
AeroKen is offline
Find More Posts by AeroKen
3D? I only got two thumbs!
United States, MA
Joined Jul 2012
2,168 Posts
I'm using a talon 90 with a 4016 quite successfully. Firmware is at 4.04. I did tweak a couple settings but I don't remember exactly what they were. I measured 1567 watts, 66.7 amps peak with a fresh lipo with the Torque and a 16x7.

I can dig out my notes on settings tonight.
AeroKen is offline Find More Posts by AeroKen
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 01:24 PM
Enterprise7 is offline
Find More Posts by Enterprise7
Huckin around the Shire
Enterprise7's Avatar
USA, NH, Manchester
Joined Jun 2010
2,405 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan_m View Post
Anybody have any experience with this motor:
http://www.redwingrc.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=553

was reading a review of the new redwing mxsbach, and Gary/Gyro used that motor on it. He was getting about 3100 watts out of it on a 12s setup. Certainly an attractive price.

Gary got a pre release version and only got to fly it on two days I think as he is now back deployed. He sent data to Jim and I helped him pick out props and such for it and sent him a ESC.

At this point it looks like a Power 180 for less money, but the data is very very limited as Gary had no logging and just watt meter type data.

For the redwing 12 pound designs, it does look like a decent solution for the money as those planes need more nose weight to get CG.
Enterprise7 is offline Find More Posts by Enterprise7
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 01:27 PM
ecfarr is online now
Find More Posts by ecfarr
Registered User
Joined Mar 2009
30 Posts
please post your notes. The only way I can get it above 25 amps is by going back to version 4.04 for firmware on the talon 90. Even at that I only get a max of 35 amps. I have not seen my meter even reach a reading of 800 watts.
ecfarr is online now Find More Posts by ecfarr
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 02:10 PM
ryane67 is offline
Find More Posts by ryane67
I'll fly (and crash) anything!
ryane67's Avatar
United States, MI, Orion Charter Township
Joined Mar 2013
1,356 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecfarr View Post
please post your notes. The only way I can get it above 25 amps is by going back to version 4.04 for firmware on the talon 90. Even at that I only get a max of 35 amps. I have not seen my meter even reach a reading of 800 watts.
I had a similar problem with one of my Talon 90's.. I took it back to the hobby shop for a replacement and the next one worked perfectly.
ryane67 is offline Find More Posts by ryane67
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 02:21 PM
Aeroplayin is offline
Find More Posts by Aeroplayin
Not as Good as The Kid
Aeroplayin's Avatar
South Pasadena, FL
Joined Sep 2009
8,606 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise7 View Post
Gary got a pre release version and only got to fly it on two days I think as he is now back deployed. He sent data to Jim and I helped him pick out props and such for it and sent him a ESC.

At this point it looks like a Power 180 for less money, but the data is very very limited as Gary had no logging and just watt meter type data.

For the redwing 12 pound designs, it does look like a decent solution for the money as those planes need more nose weight to get CG.
It's premature to post anything definitive without seeing the Castle log data, but it certainly looks like a 185Kv from the info I go. The Eflite Power 180 is represented as a 195Kv. The Tomcat is also only $175 compared to $300 for the Power 180. It does have the third concentric bearing (reported as such) too. I'm not sure if the Power 180 does or not.

As for power above 3000W, that's not what Tomcat or Eflite recommend even though they both mention a 22x11 prop on 10S. The Power 180 is clearly a 10S motor but the Tomcat at 185Kv seems to be capable of 3000W on 12S with the 21x10 PJN. I would personally be tempted to try an APC 22x11 thin on it too, just for the hellofit, and check Amps and throttle response, but I'm just thinking out loud now.
Aeroplayin is offline Find More Posts by Aeroplayin
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 02:35 PM
ryane67 is offline
Find More Posts by ryane67
I'll fly (and crash) anything!
ryane67's Avatar
United States, MI, Orion Charter Township
Joined Mar 2013
1,356 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise7 View Post
Gary got a pre release version and only got to fly it on two days I think as he is now back deployed. He sent data to Jim and I helped him pick out props and such for it and sent him a ESC.

At this point it looks like a Power 180 for less money, but the data is very very limited as Gary had no logging and just watt meter type data.

For the redwing 12 pound designs, it does look like a decent solution for the money as those planes need more nose weight to get CG.
too heavy for say.. an electric 74 laser on 12s 3300? I guess we dont know what the weight on the e-model will be yet though.
ryane67 is offline Find More Posts by ryane67
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 03:36 PM
Enterprise7 is offline
Find More Posts by Enterprise7
Huckin around the Shire
Enterprise7's Avatar
USA, NH, Manchester
Joined Jun 2010
2,405 Posts
Power Systems for Extreme Flight Fanatics!

I got custom standoffs this week to put the scorpion 5525-195 on my gasser laser and sell the DA-35. Someone locally has expressed some interest in buying the plane outright as I keep waiting for the e-version.

I weighted it a few weeks ago for aero and my memory is failing me. I think it was 12 pounds even dry.

Even if the motor will push the 3500+ watts I would need, you will need 3700-4000 to get the flight time to be reasonable.

It is certainly a motor worth trying and if my scorchmion blows up, this would be on the list to try along with that e-max we talked about over the winter.

I also spent some time comparing my MXS to the gas laser. The tunnel is most of the dead weight. Also the MXS has a lot of holes in the forward bulkhead to let air into the fuse and to lighten up the structure. Also the firewall is more advanced and the structure is more open. 4-6 ounces is my guess on the dead weight factor. I can run my 1000g revo set and just out with the less flight time for now as it only flies once a month as a gasser if that. I have the ESC and motor, so it will be a no cost conversion. Just the time to swap it all out.

I also painted the inside of the laser go fuel proofing so there is a little bit of dead weights as well.
Enterprise7 is offline Find More Posts by Enterprise7
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 04:09 PM
Aeroplayin is offline
Find More Posts by Aeroplayin
Not as Good as The Kid
Aeroplayin's Avatar
South Pasadena, FL
Joined Sep 2009
8,606 Posts
I have 2980g for the empty gas version of the Laser so 12.24 pounds with 413g of servos, arms, rods, hardware, and extensions, the 780g SII-5525, a 14g Rx, the 180g ESC w/BEC, the 40g Ultraguard, 1000g 12S 3700 Revos, lite CF spinner and wood prop. That means you'll need at least 3365W from the motor, and it's an 8.68 CL which I'm good with.
Aeroplayin is offline Find More Posts by Aeroplayin
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 06:49 PM
AeroKen is offline
Find More Posts by AeroKen
3D? I only got two thumbs!
United States, MA
Joined Jul 2012
2,168 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecfarr View Post
please post your notes. The only way I can get it above 25 amps is by going back to version 4.04 for firmware on the talon 90. Even at that I only get a max of 35 amps. I have not seen my meter even reach a reading of 800 watts.
OK, firmware 4.04
LVC 3V/cell, soft
Throttle response 10
Fixed endpoints

Everything else at defaults (except of course BEC settings, but that's not the problem your having). Try resetting to defaults and then putting in those changes.
AeroKen is offline Find More Posts by AeroKen
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 09:11 PM
ryane67 is offline
Find More Posts by ryane67
I'll fly (and crash) anything!
ryane67's Avatar
United States, MI, Orion Charter Township
Joined Mar 2013
1,356 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecfarr View Post
So I am regretting that I made the choice to save a few dollars and get the castle creations talon 90 instead of the 80a airboss esc.
I can not get the torque 4016 and talon 90 to work together.
I have switched esc settings to fixed endpoints, timing to low timing, and pwm to 8khz. nothing has helped.

firmware was version 4.04. the plane felt sluggish and made a slight whining noise at low throttle. I was able to measure that at 35 amps full throttle as a maximum burst.

Now I have updated the firmware to version 4.22 and as I throttle up, once I reach a reading of 25amps on my meter, the motor makes a horrible whining noise which gets worse with more throttle and I don't get any readings above 25 amps at that point. My current settings are fixed endpoints, Throttle response =8, motor timing low, pwm 12khz. where do I go from here.

The castle creations support line just gives a message that they have extreme staff shortages and that the wait time will be longer than normal (which means very long).
Here's what sounds like the same issue I had:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...ostcount=13529
ryane67 is offline Find More Posts by ryane67
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 01, 2015, 10:03 PM
Sideslip is offline
Find More Posts by Sideslip
Registered User
Sideslip's Avatar
United States, MI, Parchment
Joined May 2004
2,037 Posts
[QUOTE=ecfarr;32577609]So I am regretting that I made the choice to save a few dollars and get the castle creations talon 90 instead of the 80a airboss esc.
I can not get the torque 4016 and talon 90 to work together.
I have switched esc settings to fixed endpoints, timing to low timing, and pwm to 8khz. nothing has helped.

firmware was version 4.04. the plane felt sluggish and made a slight whining noise at low throttle. I was able to measure that at 35 amps full throttle as a maximum burst.

Now I have updated the firmware to version 4.22 and as I throttle up, once I reach a reading of 25amps on my meter, the motor makes a horrible whining noise which gets worse with more throttle and I don't get any readings above 25 amps at that point. My current settings are fixed endpoints, Throttle response =8, motor timing low, pwm 12khz. where do I go from here.

The castle creations support line just gives a message that they have extreme staff shortages and that the wait time will be longer than normal (which means very long).

This is what I currently use in my EF Laser 60 with 4016 mtr and Talon 90. Got this setup while in phone contact with tech at CC.
Edit, This setup works well for me.
Sideslip is offline Find More Posts by Sideslip
Last edited by Sideslip; Sep 01, 2015 at 10:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:12 AM
bryansifsof44 is online now
Find More Posts by bryansifsof44
bryansifsof44's Avatar
United States, AK, Anchorage
Joined Oct 2011
5,909 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsg View Post
(off-topic)



Bryan -



That hobby store in Anchorage, across the road from REI - is way cool. I suspect you know the owner - if so please pass my compliments when you get a chance..

Anchorage house of hobbies... For sure Jim owner and his son Ryan are good people. He once left a part outside hidden for me to pick up after store hours and catch up with them later. It was started by Jims dad and has been around for years. Their new place which they moved into 3 years ago was a welcomed upgrade. They really needed the extra space. May I ask how your know about them? I will let him know next time I swing through.
bryansifsof44 is online now Find More Posts by bryansifsof44
Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
nsg is offline
nsg
Find More Posts by nsg
nsg
Registered User
Yardley, PA
Joined Sep 2006
4,229 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansifsof44 View Post
... May I ask how your know about them? I will let him know next time I swing through.
We were picking up misc stuff at REI (you know, the bear spray and such) before heading to Kenai peninsula, and my son noticed the hobby shop across the street. Of course we checked it out.
nsg is offline Find More Posts by nsg
Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:00 PM
Aeroplayin is offline
Find More Posts by Aeroplayin
Not as Good as The Kid
Aeroplayin's Avatar
South Pasadena, FL
Joined Sep 2009
8,606 Posts
Torque and Current

Time to answer another PM question in public because I want to make sure I say this right, and that usually happens when everyone else checks the concepts and my math.

Torque is a function of the magnetic field at the rotor, and the magnetic field is directly relative to current.

Increasing the current equals an increase in the magnetic field.
Increasing the magnetic field equals an increase in the torque.
Increasing the magnetic field equals a decrease in the motor speed.
Increasing the voltage reduces current, which reduces the magnetic field, which reduce the torque, which increase the motor speed.

On the same 225 unloaded RPMs per volt 28 pole Hacker A60-7S motor, and on what would be a theoretical 3.7 volts per cell in each case......

A 21x10 will spin 6650 RPMs on 10S and develop 2.49 lb-ft of torque, 3.16 HP, and a 63.0 mph pitch speed.
A 20x8 will spin 8037 RPMs on 12S and develop 2.40 lb-ft of torque, 3.67 HP, and a 60.9 mph pitch speed.
A 22x8 will spin 6620 RPMs on 10S and develop 2.39 lb-ft of torque, 3.01 HP, and a 50.2 mph pitch speed.

The reality is that the 21x10 and the 22x8 on 10S operated on about 3.655 volts per cell at about the same time in the log, while the 20x8 operated at about 3.751 volts per cell for even a bit longer. By lowering the load, and increasing the voltage, this efficiency makes perfect sense. So the real numbers are:

A 21x10 will spin 6570 RPMs on 10S and develop 2.43 lb-ft of torque, 3.04 HP, and a 62.6 mph pitch speed.
A 20x8 will spin 8147 RPMs on 12S and develop 2.47 lb-ft of torque, 3.83 HP, and a 62.2 mph pitch speed.
A 22x8 will spin 6540 RPMs on 10S and develop 2.33 lb-ft of torque, 2.90 HP, and a 50.0 mph pitch speed.

The Amps are virtually the same, and the PAR Calc will confirm this. So the similar torque values and Amps makes perfect sense too. So if we were thinking that we would see more torque at the top end with the 22x8, we're wrong. In fact, flying with this prop for one flight was enough for me to eliminate it from the options I had on the motor. It was just not performing as I expected -- so back to the math, which now explains it to me.

As you may have heard me say, I'm still not sure if I like the 21x10 on 10S or the 20x8 on 12S better, but the fact is that the 20x8 has been on the plane since I last tested them both in May of 2014. The power and energy is apparent, and the numbers from HP and Torque prove this out.

Getting back to the torque and magnetic field comparison, if we were independently able to control current and voltage to the same motor with the same load, or no load, decreasing the current without changing the voltage will still increase the RPMs, lower the torque, and lower the magnetic field at the rotor. Increasing the current without changing the voltage will decrease the RPMs, increase the torque, and increase the magnetic field.

For the same reasons, leaving the current the same and increasing the voltage will keep the torque virtually the same yet increase the RPMs. In the case with the 20x8, we increased the volts, lowered the load in order to keep the current the same, and therefore kept the torque the same too. So we're actually getting the same torque with a smaller prop because of how we managed the load and the voltage to get considerably more RPMs, more power, and more pitch speed, on virtually the same Amps. Very cool.
Aeroplayin is offline Find More Posts by Aeroplayin
Last edited by Aeroplayin; Yesterday at 06:12 PM. Reason: Changed N-m to lb-ft
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question RC kits for experimenting with flight control systems SubZer0 DIY Electronics 15 Feb 25, 2015 03:15 PM
Wanted left wing for extreme flight yellow and black 74 yak hondaboy92hatch Aircraft - Fuel - Airplanes (FS/W) 0 Sep 29, 2011 10:18 AM
Discussion Extreme power systems & Royal Evo 12 rbehrends Radios 5 Oct 11, 2007 05:55 PM
Discussion Battery for Logo 10 - Thunder Power "eXtreme" 5S 4600 or Flight Power 5S 3700? WeatherB Electric Heli Talk 6 Jan 25, 2007 10:29 PM