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Old Jul 13, 2013, 06:05 PM
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R.M. Gellart's Avatar
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Originally Posted by rcbrust View Post
For those who feel that 10 minutes from 200m is a gimme, please consider the following numbers.

At the 2013 Nats ALES, out of 29 competing pilots, only the top 4 finishers made their time in every round.

At the 2013 Polecat, out of 58 competing pilots, only the 1st place finisher made his time in every round.

Randy
I look at it another way Randy, I see two 2013 National Soaring Champions (HLG and UNL), a LSF Level V/Past National Champion/40 years of winch launched soaring experience, and a full size sailplane pilot with many years of model soaring as the top four pilots. And if you throw in fifth place, albeit with a missed maxed round, another LSF Level V pilot.

It might have been tougher for others, for whatever reasons (ask me how I know folks), but these guys with more talent, more years experience, and more knowledge to take chances won the ALES at this years Nats. We are getting hung up on tasks, airframes, and landings, but when you not only look at the results of these five guys flights; look closer at their flying style, their situational awareness, agressiveness, and God given talent, that is why they win in many (if not most) circumstance.

I think that many here want to find other reasons for their wins and placings, but they could be competitive with about anything if they had a bit of time with it.

Marc
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 06:19 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
jaizon's Avatar
USA, NH
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart View Post
I look at it another way Randy, I see two 2013 National Soaring Champions (HLG and UNL), a LSF Level V/Past National Champion/40 years of winch launched soaring experience, and a full size sailplane pilot with many years of model soaring as the top four pilots. And if you throw in fifth place, albeit with a missed maxed round, another LSF Level V pilot.

It might have been tougher for others, for whatever reasons (ask me how I know folks), but these guys with more talent, more years experience, and more knowledge to take chances won the ALES at this years Nats. We are getting hung up on tasks, airframes, and landings, but when you not only look at the results of these five guys flights; look closer at their flying style, their situational awareness, agressiveness, and God given talent, that is why they win in many (if not most) circumstance.

I think that many here want to find other reasons for their wins and placings, but they could be competitive with about anything if they had a bit of time with it.

Marc
Wow, Marc. I feel much better about my overall performance now knowing all that about the top guys. Thanks.

Preston
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 06:43 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
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Originally Posted by jaizon View Post
Wow, Marc. I feel much better about my overall performance now knowing all that about the top guys. Thanks.

Preston
I keep checking the classified adds for a minimum wage rc soaring job...none so far.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 06:48 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
jaizon's Avatar
USA, NH
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
I keep checking the classified adds for a minimum wage rc soaring job...none so far.
If you get good enough, the job will find you.
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 07:31 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
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If you get good enough, the job will find you.
I need a student loan
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 09:38 PM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
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Originally Posted by rcbrust View Post
For those who feel that 10 minutes from 200m is a gimme, please consider the following numbers.
Producing stats about how many maxes were attained at two contests is completely statistically irrelevant. Why not just TRY reducing the launch height for a couple of contests and SEE what it does to the scores? I bet it has the desired effect and eliminates a bunch of wasted bandwidth here.

Let me reiterate that a 200m launch for a 10 minute flight is IMHO a gimme... but let's focus on what this thread is about: de-emphasizing the landing. Quite simply if you lower the launch height it's LESS of a gimme, and makes the flight time more critical in relation to the landing. Will it shake up the scores at the top a bit? Probably. Will it put a lot of separation between the top and the bottom? Probably. Will it make the guys at the bottom have less fun and not want to come back? Probably not. We haven't seen that effect in the DLG world. Guys look at their % of the winning score and strive to make that number go up. Pilots with 70% scores at the end of the day look for ways to make their times more consistently. Pilots with 90% of the winning score tend to try to work on refining their air reading ability and making more authoritative decisions. It's DIRECT feedback on how you're doing. If I finish 3rd in a contest with 94% of the winning score, I probably am not happy, even though I'm in the wood. If I finish 7th in a contest with 97% of the winning score, I probably feel good about how I flew. Trust the competitors to find ways to keep it challenging. Don't "purple ink" them into a 90%+ score if they didn't deserve it.

As for winning some ALES contests... I have locally. I missed the NATs because my father was hospitalized otherwise I would have been there, and likely in the top five as well... flying a 2m against all the bigger ships. I hope that doesn't come off a cocky, but it's the truth. I would fly more ALES contests but they're pretty darned boring with the 200m start. Call some 15 minute tasks or reduce the launch height and make it fun.

*insert argument about 15 minute tasks and not flying enough rounds*

Guys we can re-read this thread for the last 30 years going back to paper publications... Separation has always been a problem but unlike TD, we have a very simple solution that will limit launch height due to the technology being used.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 10:56 AM
Turn down for what?
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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To be up front I haven't yet flown an organized ALES contest. A buddy and I have been doing informal ALES rounds but that is as much as I have been able to do.

What about like how in TD the landings are added after the flight task normalization and that allows pilots to "make ground" add a bunus point factor for cutoff setting? Say if you have cutoff set at 150 meters if you score > 900 normalized then you get 100 bonus points. Cutoff at 100 would be 200 bonus, cutoff at 50 300 bonus points.

Ryan
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 05:56 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
jaizon's Avatar
USA, NH
Joined Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by tom43004 View Post
Producing stats about how many maxes were attained at two contests is completely statistically irrelevant. Why not just TRY reducing the launch height for a couple of contests and SEE what it does to the scores? I bet it has the desired effect and eliminates a bunch of wasted bandwidth here.

Let me reiterate that a 200m launch for a 10 minute flight is IMHO a gimme... but let's focus on what this thread is about: de-emphasizing the landing. Quite simply if you lower the launch height it's LESS of a gimme, and makes the flight time more critical in relation to the landing. Will it shake up the scores at the top a bit? Probably. Will it put a lot of separation between the top and the bottom? Probably. Will it make the guys at the bottom have less fun and not want to come back? Probably not. We haven't seen that effect in the DLG world. Guys look at their % of the winning score and strive to make that number go up. Pilots with 70% scores at the end of the day look for ways to make their times more consistently. Pilots with 90% of the winning score tend to try to work on refining their air reading ability and making more authoritative decisions. It's DIRECT feedback on how you're doing. If I finish 3rd in a contest with 94% of the winning score, I probably am not happy, even though I'm in the wood. If I finish 7th in a contest with 97% of the winning score, I probably feel good about how I flew. Trust the competitors to find ways to keep it challenging. Don't "purple ink" them into a 90%+ score if they didn't deserve it.

As for winning some ALES contests... I have locally. I missed the NATs because my father was hospitalized otherwise I would have been there, and likely in the top five as well... flying a 2m against all the bigger ships. I hope that doesn't come off a cocky, but it's the truth. I would fly more ALES contests but they're pretty darned boring with the 200m start. Call some 15 minute tasks or reduce the launch height and make it fun.

*insert argument about 15 minute tasks and not flying enough rounds*

Guys we can re-read this thread for the last 30 years going back to paper publications... Separation has always been a problem but unlike TD, we have a very simple solution that will limit launch height due to the technology being used.
Actually the statistic you dismiss comes from a total of approximately 750 flights and that is quite statistically significant!

I reiterate my invite to come win some wood instead of telling us what you could do - come do it.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 07:05 PM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
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So you want to statistically define a sport by two days of flying? How many expert soaring pilots were there? *subjective, sure* Personally, I saw four or five on the roster at the NATS and they ended up winning all of the wood... and yes those few guys maxed almost every flight. I didn't see the Polecat roster but I'd make an assumption that it was a similar mix of pilot skill level. I could be wrong, and I'm sure you'll point that out if I am.

This won't be popular but I'll say it, and yes I'll be guilty of generalizing... but I think ALES attracts some guys who don't feel they can be competitive at other disciplines (TD, F3J, F3F, F3K) for whatever reason. Maybe it's a lack of money, skill, time off to travel, aging eyesight... whatever the reason. That makes statistical sampling of a couple of events irrelevant to me. Hand a capable ALES plane to ANY of the top 20 guys at the TD or F3K NATs and they'll get 10 minutes from 200m almost every time. You should feel good that those guys aren't flying ALES (yet) en masse.

I'm not pointing this out to be mean or egotistical... just to say that if you cling to the 200m launch height, alot of the competitive pilots will not come. There's no reason to. It's a landing contest for the top guys which isn't fun in the world of bent prop shafts and cracked firewall bulkhead joints. We have molded TD lawn darts for that already. Competitive guys WILL dork their planes for points in a contest, then we'll be back here arguing about how much money it takes to be a top ALES pilot because you have to have three moldies to complete a contest weekend. If it becomes a contest to find the best soaring pilot, won in the air and not the landing circle by being better at reading and working air then some of the top guys will migrate to it. I know a few of those guys personally and they REALLY like the challenge that soaring of any kind brings. They also like competitions that allow them to demonstrate how much skill they have at their trade.

As for the invitation, I'll accept that and look forward to the challenge. I'll see you at a contest soon enough.
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Old Jul 15, 2013, 03:37 AM
Mesa AZ, it's a dry heat!
USA, AZ, Mesa
Joined Oct 2004
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Launch Height

In Arizona, (Arizona Electric Soaring Group) we have used 150M launch height since Nov of 2011.

I feel that if you can't make 10 minutes from 150M then you should probably stick to a 750' winch line and learn to "kite"!

While I admit that we have good lift in central Arizona, some days seem to be all down. Those days are the days which sort the soaring flyers from the glider pilots.

We may be trying an event this winter with a 100M launch and a 10 minute task. If the CD survives it may become standard for us.

Iain
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Old Jul 15, 2013, 05:31 AM
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Iain, 100M and 10 minutes is fun, if nothing else to push the envelope.

Marc
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Old Jul 15, 2013, 06:01 AM
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Jyvaskyla, Finland
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Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart View Post
Iain, 100M and 10 minutes is fun, if nothing else to push the envelope.
To me it looks fun in some kind of normalized "good weather". In challenging conditions the outcome is probably huge amount of 2-5 minute flights. And in really good weather it will anyway be a landing competition since almost everybody flyes full time anyway.

Sorry for being sceptical...
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Old Jul 15, 2013, 06:10 AM
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Tuomo, that is every event, we are dependent on conditions in soaring. That is why I see CD's calling the launch height on site instead of on the event flier. If it is good, go low, really crappy, go higher. Fliers will need to be able to change their chips on call.

But 100M is fun!
Marc
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Old Jul 15, 2013, 06:35 AM
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Jyvaskyla, Finland
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Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart View Post
Tuomo, that is every event, we are dependent on conditions in soaring. That is why I see CD's calling the launch height on site instead of on the event flier. If it is good, go low, really crappy, go higher. Fliers will need to be able to change their chips on call.
Marc
Well, not quite. Even though I know it is off-topic, I was trying to make the "FAI-point"

The beauty of F3J/F5J is that every pilot (not rules or CD) can decide launch altitude and the risk he wants to take. Rules adjust automatically to varying conditions and skill levels, making competition fun for everybody.
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Old Jul 15, 2013, 08:11 AM
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Totally concur Tuomo, 5J sounds fun. but we do have ALES and need to make it work too.

Marc
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