Originally Posted by CoastalFlyer

I am glad those of you who "believe" gain comfort you obviously require. Many of us are quite comfortable without the need for fairy tales.

Indeed.

That is what possibly generates much of the stress that is exhibited here in LTUP from a certain sub-set of believers. They do not appear to be able to envisage that anyone could be happy, content and comfortable with their own beliefs, which do not include a supernatural imaginary friend.

Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE

Ah but is it logical to say you KNOW there's nothing - given the size of the known Universe (which actually isn't known)

I don't KNOW there are no gods. I BELIEVE there are no gods. This belief of course is based on a lack of evidence. If I came across evidence of gods/God then I might change my stance to agnostic or theist.

Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE

You're just sore because every intelligent sentient being on the planet called your baby ugly

I've clearly stated on here that I wasn't a Bush fan. And it is not I, that is bringing up the negatives about BUSH multiple times a day in multiple topics almost 2 years later...

You are the one that appears to be a little sore about things.

My point remains, I dislike your wide spread Bush trolling 2 years after the fact, and that has no relevance to you being agnostic.

Maybe I should clarify that agnostics are honest about the fact that mankind doesn't know all. Edit: point proven here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=43
But that does not mean that all agnostics are honest in every aspect of their lives It just means agnostics are honest about being agnostic.

And then of course there is also those that don't believe in a GOD, make fun of those that do......and then call themselves agnostics.
They would be IMO Liars and not actually agnostics.

To put it in a way that you might understand, Bush called himself a conservative, but was everything but conservative see how that works? just because someone claims to be something, doesn't actually mean that they are what they claim to be. It just means that they have an agenda... and are willing to lie and fib about who they actually are....if it serves their purpose. Hence Obama calling himself a Christian. I got the impression he proclaimed that strictly for the purpose of his campaign.

Originally Posted by mortato

I don't KNOW there are no gods. I BELIEVE there are no gods. This belief of course is based on a lack of evidence. If I came across evidence of gods/God then I might change my stance to agnostic or theist.

Just a bit of clarification here. The agnostic position -in the original Thomas Huxley sense - is that it is not possible to know of the existence of a supernatural supreme being. Those things are literally unknown and cannot be known, within the template of a natural universe. The clue is in the etymology of the word agnostic.

Originally Posted by mortato

I don't KNOW there are no gods. I BELIEVE there are no gods. This belief of course is based on a lack of evidence. If I came across evidence of gods/God then I might change my stance to agnostic or theist.

OK - tis a fine line but I understand where you're coming from

[QUOTE=leccyflyer;15729467]Just a bit of clarification here. The agnostic position -in the original Thomas Huxley sense - is that it is not possible to know of the existence of a supernatural supreme being. Those things are literally unknown and cannot be known, within the template of a natural universe. The clue is in the etymology of the word agnostic.[/QUOTE

I think Donald Rumsfeld put it better

Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE

I think Donald Rumsfeld put it better

I think I'll stick with the originator Thomas Huxley, if it's all the same to you .

When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; Christian or a freethinker; I found that the more I learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until, at last, I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain "gnosis,"–had, more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble.

So I took thought, and invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of "agnostic." It came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the "gnostic" of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant. To my great satisfaction the term took.

From

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Skeptic, free-thinker, agnostic. All good intellectual positions to hold, IMO.

I think I'm a free-thinker - but who knows!

I believe that we all need to believe in something... even atheist believe that such existence is unknowable - as they can't prove it to all!

I like Science, but believe it is also a modern religion (and Scientists are just the religions Priests) - as 99% of all Science I have to believe in.
I'm standing on the shoulders of other, greater(?) thinkers - and I'm unable to prove most of these things myself. Also, a theory one moment becomes discredited the next (but the Universe continues to operate!).

So, we are all believers - but what we believe in varies, consequently who can say that they are 'right' and the other guy is 'wrong'?

This thread delivers!! I'm absolutely laughing my off reading the many posts in the different British accents Ive assigned to the British posters. You guys have made my day . I should make a video Norman is Patrick Stewart by the way, that's a tough one!

I'm aaaaaaa freeee thinkah!!

Originally Posted by FL Knifemaker

This thread delivers!! I'm absolutely laughing my off reading the many posts in the different British accents Ive assigned to the British posters. You guys have made my day . I should make a video Norman is Patrick Stewart by the way, that's a tough one!

I'm aaaaaaa freeee thinkah!!

Do it. I hate hearing my own voice on a recording so it can't be any worse.

Originally Posted by Norman Adlam

I think I'm a free-thinker - but who knows!

I believe that we all need to believe in something... even atheist believe that such existence is unknowable - as they can't prove it to all!

I like Science, but believe it is also a modern religion (and Scientists are just the religions Priests) - as 99% of all Science I have to believe in.
I'm standing on the shoulders of other, greater(?) thinkers - and I'm unable to prove most of these things myself. Also, a theory one moment becomes discredited the next (but the Universe continues to operate!).

So, we are all believers - but what we believe in varies, consequently who can say that they are 'right' and the other guy is 'wrong'?

The difference is faith. I don't do faith. If I don't understand the principles (which is often) then I rely on the repeatability.

Originally Posted by Norman Adlam

So, we are all believers - but what we believe in varies, consequently who can say that they are 'right' and the other guy is 'wrong'?

That's why I don't give a flip what anybody believes.
My beliefs make me whole, and it's not likely that other's beliefs, whatever they are, will make any difference at all with regard to my own personal destiny.

There's just a couple of things that strike me about all this;

First, if there are a hundred people in a group and each believes differently, only one of them can possibly be right.
The reason non-believers are more stressed is because no matter what the singular truth is, they're screwed no matter what. An athiest is screwed if he's wrong, and he's screwed if he's right.

Second, there are people who believe they are so right that they are willing to kill everyone else who doesn't agree with them.
http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newssto...f-a0bede427a11

Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid told The Associated Press in Pakistan that they killed the eight foreigners and two Afghan interpreters because they were spying for the Americans and preaching Christianity.

This was one of those ubiquitous church groups sent from neighborhood churches all over the the US, and you know dam well they weren't "spying".

I wonder how things would go if Christians in America were to hunt down Muslims and kill them just because they were "preaching Islam"?
If Islam is "The Religion of Peace", and they do that, then why don't we read stories of us violent, bigotted, raging, Christians doing the same. I'm astounded that we don't read similar stories like this over here.

Originally Posted by FL Knifemaker

This thread delivers!! I'm absolutely laughing my off reading the many posts in the different British accents Ive assigned to the British posters. You guys have made my day . I should make a video Norman is Patrick Stewart by the way, that's a tough one!

I'm aaaaaaa freeee thinkah!!

Cool, Fl!

That's a great compliment to me! Wish I was as refined as Patrick!

Originally Posted by mortato

The difference is faith. I don't do faith. If I don't understand the principles (which is often) then I rely on the repeatability.

I have faith in Science....

Originally Posted by mortato

Do it. I hate hearing my own voice on a recording so it can't be any worse.

Oh!! I need to come up with another voice!! Connor McCloud from the Clan McCloud that will take some practice rolling my rrrrrrrrrrrs.