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Old Dec 20, 2006, 10:59 PM
del
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Plantraco Butterfly Duration Competition?

Friends,

After I learned that NIRAC is to be no more, primarily due to a lack
of interest in indoor/micro RC competition, it got me to thinking..
(As we all know, that can lead to disaster.... But....)

One of the things I will miss about having no more NIRAC meets is
being able to fly indoor RC duration. I enjoyed the event. But it was clearly
going down the same path that indoor FF duration was going down over 30
years ago. The current indoor RC AMA rules are forcing folks to build huge
models that are so complex that few of us care.

At the moment I'd guess that there are no more than 2 folks building duration
models for either the AMA or NIRAC event rules in North America. For me,
that's just sad.... Seeing a model floating along and trying to stay in the
air as long as possible is a lovely thing to behold, and an interesting
challenge to us model builders.

Then I remembered what the Penny Plane event had done to increase
participation at indoor FF meets. With all the restrictions in the PP rules,
indoor FF duration became an event that most model builders would stand
a chance of building. It worked. And Penny Plane became one of the
most popular events at indoor FF meets.

And so this proposal for an on-line competition; as an attempt at bringing
indoor RC duration back to something all of us can do...


Indoor Plantraco Butterfly Duration

The Rules thus far...

All of the stock Plantraco Butterfly electronics must be used without modification.
That includes the prop, gear drive, motor, hinge-act, RX, battery bahoma system...
and on and on. No exceptions.

Stock Butterflies and the new Carbon Butterflies are allowed. But building your
own airframe is encouraged. In which case, extending the wires between the
stock components is allowed. But nothing more.

Longest flight wins.

As Contest Director, I will fly, and post my times, but not be allowed to win.

I'll come up with some kind of pitiful trophy for the winner.

That is, unless, we can get the folks at Plantraco to kick in for some prizes..
Hint, hint...

What do y'all think?
Who's in?
At the moment I'm thinking the contest should start when we agree on the
final rules, and end on the Ides of March.... March 15.

--del
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 11:38 PM
RIP Sheba :(
Robster's Avatar
Brentwood, CA
Joined Nov 2002
1,131 Posts
Sounds like fun, Del

I'm in. I think that I will use my existing stick and tissue Butterfly setup but with a different wing that will have more wing area, hence lower wing loading. Just gotta get to designing it.

How do you want to prove flight times? Video? But, that could lead to a very large file size....

Rob
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 12:05 AM
RIP Sheba :(
Robster's Avatar
Brentwood, CA
Joined Nov 2002
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Video suggestion:

Full flight duration must be documented by a time stamped video. Use Movie Maker or other video editting software to edit the video showing the first segment and last segment of flight. Post the shortened video as proof of duration.

Don't exactly know how to do this myself, but between now and March, I'm sure we can come up with some standardized instructions.

Del, whataya think?
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 08:38 AM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
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Joined Sep 2002
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Hi Del,

I too got the unfortunate news from Jack Applegate about NIRAC. I think the esoteric nature of the events that required "purpose built" models has more to do with the demise than a lack of intrest in indoor flying. But, that debate is now a moot point

Butterfly duration sounds like it might be fun. The FF and sailplane postal contests I've seen all use the honor system for scoring purposes. We should be able to do the same. Those with access to golf domes and sports facilities will have a nice gliding advantage, it can take awhile to glide back down from the celing of a golf dome.
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 09:23 AM
is it flying time?
Jerry Combs's Avatar
Wyandotte Oklahoma
Joined Oct 2004
2,777 Posts
I am with Tim on this one, keep it on the honor system. Not all of us have video cameras nor an internet connection that will allow us to upload mega big files. Most of the time I am lucky to get a 15k connection.

I will be building a model for this competition.

Jerry
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 02:16 PM
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Sounds like fun competition.

For sure we can sponsor the event with a cool prize or trophy or something.

How about gift certificates usable at http://www.plantraco.com

$50.00 Plantraco Gift Certificate to First Place
$20.00 Plantraco Gift Certificate to Second Place

If enough people enter and have fun with it, we'll even find a trophy.
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 07:13 PM
del
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wolff
Hi Del,

I too got the unfortunate news from Jack Applegate about NIRAC. I think the esoteric nature of the events that required "purpose built" models has more to do with the demise than a lack of intrest in indoor flying. But, that debate is now a moot point

Butterfly duration sounds like it might be fun. The FF and sailplane postal contests I've seen all use the honor system for scoring purposes. We should be able to do the same. Those with access to golf domes and sports facilities will have a nice gliding advantage, it can take awhile to glide back down from the celing of a golf dome.

Yes, yes, and yes, Tim,

It broke my heart when I ran into Bob Wilder at the JR meet and
learned that he was working with the AMA to officialy disband NIRAC.
Bob's contention seemd to be something like "nobody builds anymore..."
I'd say that what I see here on RC Groups proves that wrong.

But you're right, it's all moot now. So the question then becomes
where do we go from here? That's part of my motivation for
proposing the Butterfly Duration on-line postal.

There has to be some way to keep the fun we've had at NIRAC
meets in our lives.

As for the advantage of a larger flying venue, I thought about that.
But with no clue about the possible varieties of models or their potential
power off sink rates, it became difficult, at best, to imagine a
reasonable hadicapping equation.

If anyone as an idea, I'll consider it.

--del
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 07:25 PM
del
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Combs
I am with Tim on this one, keep it on the honor system. Not all of us have video cameras nor an internet connection that will allow us to upload mega big files. Most of the time I am lucky to get a 15k connection.

I will be building a model for this competition.

Jerry

I agree 100% Jerry,

Requiring video verification can only add to the expense of the thing.
And my guess is, even folks with broadband internet access, would rather
be building than editing videos..

Plus, what's the motivation to cheat? It's not like winning will get your
your picture on the Wheaties box...

Honor system it is.

And, watch out folks, if Jerry's in, he's gonna be tough to beat.

--del
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 07:41 PM
del
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Hooray! Looks like we have a sponsor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plantraco
Sounds like fun competition.

For sure we can sponsor the event with a cool prize or trophy or something.

How about gift certificates usable at http://www.plantraco.com

$50.00 Plantraco Gift Certificate to First Place
$20.00 Plantraco Gift Certificate to Second Place

If enough people enter and have fun with it, we'll even find a trophy.

Thanks folks,
That sounds great to me.

And who knows, if enough folks get involved you might benefit
from the competition by finding new ways to think about the
possibilities of airframe design for the Butterfly electronics.

--del
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 09:28 PM
is it flying time?
Jerry Combs's Avatar
Wyandotte Oklahoma
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by del
As for the advantage of a larger flying venue, I thought about that.
But with no clue about the possible varieties of models or their potential
power off sink rates, it became difficult, at best, to imagine a
reasonable hadicapping equation.

If anyone as an idea, I'll consider it.

--del
Del,

I don't think that there would be a good way to do a ceiling handicap for an event like this one. I know several different fudge factors for rubber power and gliders but they do not take into account being able to turn the power on and off. For what it is worth, I will be flying in a typical gym with a ceiling that is about 22'. I promise to not bribe any timekeepers that I am able to round up with offers of free airframes.

Jerry
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 09:35 PM
is it flying time?
Jerry Combs's Avatar
Wyandotte Oklahoma
Joined Oct 2004
2,777 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plantraco
Sounds like fun competition.

For sure we can sponsor the event with a cool prize or trophy or something.

How about gift certificates usable at http://www.plantraco.com

$50.00 Plantraco Gift Certificate to First Place
$20.00 Plantraco Gift Certificate to Second Place

If enough people enter and have fun with it, we'll even find a trophy.
Bud,

Thank you, sir! Now you know why I was asking if the Monolith module has more resolution than the standard Plantraco transmitter, Del and I have been batting it back and forth about doing a competition using the Butterfly componets ever since the JR Festival.

Whoops..........., Del will the Monolith module be a legal transmitter system?

Jerry
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 10:18 PM
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Del,

You have come up with something that is exciting for the Plantraco butterfly equipments. I have a butterfly since Plantraco came-up with its wonder product back in 2005, and have been flying my own made airframes (now with see-thru saran cling wrap covering) since the original had its mishaps of sort, among others sitting on a double-storey house roof overnite, etc.

For a duration contest, may have to come-up with a really light weight model with very low wing loading. Duration will really be long if flown outdoors in the open. By flying it up high (with the 300ft equipment range), and letting it slowly float down will really send times up. Is this permitted or would it be limited to flying indoors with acertain ceiling limit?

hklam
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 10:47 PM
del
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north of Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hklam
Del,

You have come up with something that is exciting for the Plantraco butterfly equipments. I have a butterfly since Plantraco came-up with its wonder product back in 2005, and have been flying my own made airframes (now with see-thru saran cling wrap covering) since the original had its mishaps of sort, among others sitting on a double-storey house roof overnite, etc.

For a duration contest, may have to come-up with a really light weight model with very low wing loading. Duration will really be long if flown outdoors in the open. By flying it up high (with the 300ft equipment range), and letting it slowly float down will really send times up. Is this permitted or would it be limited to flying indoors with acertain ceiling limit?

hklam
This event will be limited to indoor only for just the reason you state.
I can imagine a calm evening with a slight breeze and being able to
glide in the ridge lift over a building for a loooooong time.

So it's limited to indoors.

Yes, ceiling height will make a difference. But I have no clue how to
handicap that. And, who knows? With the right model it might be possible
to win flying in a fairly small space.

And, yes, I'd guess that the lightest wing loading models will have
the best duration. But it all depends on the design. It might be that
finding a way to reduce drag so you can fly at a lower throttle setting
might be the winning combination.

Who knows? The viscous drag at these low Reynolds Numbers is
a nasty thing....

Build and we'll all learn.

--del
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 11:20 PM
del
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Combs
Del,

I don't think that there would be a good way to do a ceiling handicap for an event like this one. I know several different fudge factors for rubber power and gliders but they do not take into account being able to turn the power on and off. For what it is worth, I will be flying in a typical gym with a ceiling that is about 22'. I promise to not bribe any timekeepers that I am able to round up with offers of free airframes.

Jerry
Roger that Jerry. Years ago I ran an indoor FF postal event and
tossed in a fudge factor for celing height. While the event was
a bit of a success, it didn't really quite work for me. The fudge
factor didn't seem to produce the same results that I would have
expeted had all the models been flown in the same space.
Add to that the ability to turn, and to modulate the trottle, and you
come up with something that's nearly impossible to calculate...

As for bribing your timers.. I could use a bit of that action... Once you
get your model built, invite me to fly with y'all. I'm easy...
and cheap... ;-)

--del
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 11:40 PM
RIP Sheba :(
Robster's Avatar
Brentwood, CA
Joined Nov 2002
1,131 Posts
Glad you guys settled on the honor system. I threw the video suggestion out there as a means of documenting a duration flight if anybody thought it was necessary. I wasn't looking forward to doing all of that video work either.

I've never been involved in indoor free-flight, rubber, or any other kind of duration event. So please excuse my newbie-ness at this. Sounds like ya'll are seasoned veterans at this. Tough crowd!!

My indoor site will be a cluttered warehouse where I work, about 25' ceiling, so I will be doing my best at an efficient low wing loading low drag wing design.

Hey, can I use a helium filled rigid enclosure as my wing! hehe.

Rob
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