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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rusty case View Post
now I'm an armchair kommando....and at the salary they are pulling down, I'll bet I could have generated that level of paperwork... lol
It is easy to be flippant about this. I would suggest a more moderate approach, however to each their own.

Quote:
Yet this brings up an interesting point...
The frequent claim of 'pilot error'.
In the context of finding the root cause of a mishap, if there are no technical issues then Pilot Error will be attributed as the cause. The other thing to bear in mind is that it can be quite difficult to attribute root cause, as in many cases the contributing causes are often plausibly considered as potential root causes. It is common to have a judgement call in order to pick a root cause from all of the possible causes ... it is an unfortunate weakness but a reflection of our human condition.

And I would say that it is better than how it is handled in Europe ... aircraft accidents have an attribution of criminal negligence/responsibility as part and parcel of the mishap investigation process. Here in the states they are separate investigations.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by madsci_guy View Post
Uh, no.You are very much incorrect. A Commercial aircraft has many thousands of parts, involving many hundreds of complicated systems.

Your basic residence has maybe ten systems, at most. And only a few are considered critical.
I won't beat a dead horse but I think madsci_guy said it well.

On the issue of building codes, they are similar but different. The purpose (IMO) of the code is that if the builder complies with the code and the inspection verify compliance, then the construction is assumed to be "good" or "safe."

Although the specifications in the aviation industry could be considered similar to "codes," the difference is that for the FAA to provide a certificate there is a boatload of substantiation testing (often but not always destructive) to prove the aircraft (or component) was designed and built properly. This added layer of validation is significantly different than the average building code (although there may be special building codes that have similar requirements ... I would speculate nuclear power plants to be one such case).
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:17 PM
KlonWarz
Joined Dec 2012
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Well OK, Dave... clearly I've become confused.
Who is it that takes responsibility ???
Where does the buck stop???
rc
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rusty case View Post
Well OK, Dave... clearly I've become confused.
Who is it that takes responsibility ???
Where does the buck stop???
rc
It depends on the nature of the failure.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 02:20 PM
jrb
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Hmm...

When Northwest Airlines' brand new DC-10 arrived at their Minneapolis maintenance base the local electrical inspector would not allow it to be connected to the hangar's ground power supply (building based/not portable) since the Aircraft's wiring did not conform with the NEC!
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 02:50 PM
KlonWarz
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Originally Posted by jrb View Post
Hmm...

When Northwest Airlines' brand new DC-10 arrived at their Minneapolis maintenance base the local electrical inspector would not allow it to be connected to the hangar's ground power supply (building based/not portable) since the Aircraft's wiring did not conform with the NEC!
That would sound about right to me... it should be connected via a GFI protected sub panel similar to a mobile home... basically, a temp panel.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 04:25 PM
Figure Nine Champ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb View Post
Hmm...

When Northwest Airlines' brand new DC-10 arrived at their Minneapolis maintenance base the local electrical inspector would not allow it to be connected to the hangar's ground power supply (building based/not portable) since the Aircraft's wiring did not conform with the NEC!
I should hope not. The DC-10 has a 400 Hz AC power bus, like most modern aircraft do. 60 Hz AC power like what powers buildings, your house, etc, would blow up the aircraft's transformers and motors. Oh, and the voltage is 150 VAC, not 115.

http://books.google.com/books?id=W24...0power&f=false

It looks like your story is just a story.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 12:52 PM
jrb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madsci_guy;23982154

I should hope not. The DC-10 has a [U
400 Hz[/U] AC power bus, like most modern aircraft do. 60 Hz AC power like what powers buildings, your house, etc, would blow up the aircraft's transformers and motors. Oh, and the voltage is 150 VAC, not 115.

http://books.google.com/books?id=W24...0power&f=false

It looks like your story is just a story.
400hz -- yes; 150V doubtful!

Pretty much a standard:

Ground power units


Ground power unit that needs towing.
A ground power unit is a vehicle capable of supplying power to aircraft parked on the ground. Ground power units may also be built into the jetway, making it even easier to supply electrical power to aircraft. Many aircraft require 28 V of direct current and 110 V 400 Hz of alternating current. The electric energy is carried from a generator to a connection on the aircraft via 3 phase 4-wire insulated cable capable of handling 200 amps. These connectors are standard for all aircraft, as defined in ISO 6858.

http://www.airsidegseltd.com/ground-...0-hz/gpu100kva

http://www.wotol.com/1-stewart-steve...prod_id/651714


Same type of power is supplies as a standard at the Jetway or in a hangar/maintenance facility.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb View Post
400hz -- yes; 150V doubtful!
Maybe. This says 115/200 three phase.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32605481/M...-40-Electrical

Quote:
Pretty much a standard:

Ground power units


Ground power unit that needs towing.
A ground power unit is a vehicle capable of supplying power to aircraft parked on the ground. Ground power units may also be built into the jetway, making it even easier to supply electrical power to aircraft. Many aircraft require 28 V of direct current and 110 V 400 Hz of alternating current. The electric energy is carried from a generator to a connection on the aircraft via 3 phase 4-wire insulated cable capable of handling 200 amps. These connectors are standard for all aircraft, as defined in ISO 6858.

http://www.airsidegseltd.com/ground-...0-hz/gpu100kva

http://www.wotol.com/1-stewart-steve...prod_id/651714


Same type of power is supplies as a standard at the Jetway or in a hangar/maintenance facility.
And the ground power involves 28 VDC. Both are supplied to the aircraft. The story involving NEC standards is just a story.

PS I believe that aircraft wiring insulation is rated to 1500V minimum which exceeds NEC standards for housing.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 06:01 PM
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http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...unsafe-381627/

Here is what Elon Musk says about it. Unsafe design with several large batteries in close contact.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 07:24 PM
Not THAT Ira
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The underlying problem seems to be related to outsourcing everything as much as possible being a primary goal of the Dreamliner program.....

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...urcingxml.html

I know a lot of people who work at The Lazy B Ranch and they confirm this as well.
One of the primary goals of Boeing was to develop a major, international systems and airframe component supply infrastructure. The workers here would basically just be bolting it all together.
This has not gone well at all with a lot of major components not fitting to spec. ect...
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 11:30 PM
KlonWarz
Joined Dec 2012
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Well, there's a couple possibilities...

lack of control over subs and engineering problem with cell spacing???

We have temp probes at our hobby level... I don't know how fast a thermal runaway could occur, but they must have access to the same, or better temp probe technology as we do...

Obviously they have traded their craftsmen for bean counters... it's prevalent. All organizations tend to get top heavy. Seen it before...
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 11:22 AM
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The unanswered mystery with the 787 battery problem is why is a battery that's only a backup for the 28Vdc buss being discharged in normal operation, then apparently being charged at a fairly high rate.
Much more detailed info over here http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...s-787s-33.html
Pete
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 11:40 AM
jrb
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Wonder why they don't back to a NiXx based battery just to get flying again?
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 11:55 AM
KlonWarz
Joined Dec 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrb View Post
Wonder why they don't back to a NiXx based battery just to get flying again?
EVERY little thing must be Type Certified for an aircraft...

..there's probably others who can explain this in proper detail better than I.
rc
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