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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:24 PM
c/f
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Joined Jan 2004
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"Miss Hangar One" Build,fly...II....

Continuation from Thread #1 found here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392006


RC groups techy contacted me and says I need to close old thread as it is bogging down server, Heres #II








MH1 Directory info:

Reds vendor advertisement and pricing.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385089

Miss Hangar One build and fly with detailed pix of builds
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392006

**MISS TIDE** demo video + flight pix
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394735

**MISS TIDE U8** kit bash build,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442086

================================================== ========

What to purchase for a 10 ounce build Guaranteed:
Here is how to get in the 10oz range......guarranteed

GWS pico servos 6 grams each no extensions straight to recever. My favorites are polk hobby 4.3 gram xtra micro minis.

Glue servos in do not screw mount them do not use grommets supplied.

Use 1/2 ounce or less receviers. velcro in no foam or add on protection

Use .75 ounce or less motor control do not use bullet connects. velcro in no addtional extensions to receiver.

use #2 wood screws for motor to plywood mount no blind nuts, washers, add glue for safe measure.

DO NOT use prop adapters needing nuts, the prop save o-ring type is worst case , I glue my props on using no prop adapter.

Use 48 gram or less motors do not use bullet connects.

Use a battery weighing no more than 1.75 ounces including all your wire and plug ends.

Notice nothing I said relates to build technique. These are all hard components money can buy. NOW reverse engineer the weights of your own components and you will see why your 12+ ounces.

If someone is over 10 ounces using these established weights, lets look at it individually..............

Further items to address if interested:

Leave plywood skids off and test fly off grass or water were it is not needed. Then if your happy you will know what it cost you to have hard surface capabilities.

Get rid of control horn hookup adjustability excess hardware. Use z bend to z
bend slgihtly long and then just do another z bend or two to get the center position you need.

Use Spectra line hinging method. .015grams per hinge including GG glue smear.

Replace carbon tail supports with Spectra line

Fill in rear carbon tube slot with scrap Depron and use .007 X .250" wide carbon strip. ie, Magnalite, CST etc....

Replace hard surface runners with Rhino Skins package:
Paypal: Lfuller@sigecom.net $10 delivered

================================================== ========

Controller weights NO BS, marketing hype.

Given the fact of marketing hype, and vendors needs to standardize build componenets, AND being anal weight conscious, I ended up weighing out a few of my controllers on a digital gram scale that is callibrated monthly by an outside firm:

Let me say that I remove switches from the coolrunning variety.

I also replace servo throttle leads to same lightweight gauge as typical in the CC10, I typically run 4 servos even on CC10 and provide ample cooling as thermal heat shutdown is more to blame IMHO than overcurrent.

I replace battery leads to high strand premium slicone gauge to carry the rated load plus 50% on ALL brands, CC10 not needed as it is sized appropriately stock.

I use Deans minis even up to 30 amp WOT loads, kept to minimum as I generally power 1.5:1+ thrust weight.

I remove all motor leads except for CC10 (circuit is middle of board) and direct solder motor leads to PC board edge.

I reshrinkwrap in my own flavor lightweight clear.

This I feel is more of an apples to apples comparison of potentials weights that I can realize for my use.

CC10= 6.8 grams

Cool A10= 8.7 grams

Cool A12= 9.4 grams

CC25= 11.6 grams
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:34 PM
Red
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Santa Rosa, CA
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DING DING DING........round 2!

Red
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:34 PM
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Greensboro/H.Pt/Win-Salem P.T. Intl, North Carolina, United States
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c/f
This I feel is more of an apples to apples comparison of potentials weights that I can realize for my use.

CC10= 6.8 grams

Cool A10= 8.7 grams

Cool A12= 9.4 grams

CC25= 11.6 grams

I want your A-12. My A-12 out of the box with a deans micro is 17 grams. I just double checked it. Maybe you got an older, lighter, one. I dont think cutting off the switch and the deans would make that kind of difference either.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:39 PM
c/f
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NC guy.QUOTE from old thread"

I understand it has some clear advantages but make no mistake its more than a couple of grams. 17 grams vs about 9 grams (both with deans micro). That means (1) A-12 weighs as much as (2) cc10s. You dont mind lugging around the weight of an entire extra speed control? The extra weight is also equal to the weight of (2) four gram servos. So do you think your model would fly better without the weight of an entire speed control or (2) of the servos? IMO it matters. It will be less noticable on a "heavy" build than a "light" build because it will be less of a percentage of the total weight"

NC it is not really that bad. I preffer the A12 on Purple Perils because the 14 amp draw on a hypertuned motor is a bit of a saftey margin because those power fets and BEC thingys are all dissapating to the same board as a heatsink. The dual BEC is also a saftey factor cause when they thermal cycle on one the other takes over with no loss of control.

A CC10 board is so small and the applying the same logic above on a purple your asking for trouble.

The MH1 at any weight is a thrust vectoring model, NO THRUST NO VECTORING, NO MODEL, Its not that bad, As you get more comfortable with the MH1 and the hot season and minimal airflow in hovers your one day going to wish you had the cool running.

FWIW: Does'nt your CC10 crunch and stutter on starts with the LSr PP??
Is'nt 1/3 or less throttle basically on/off versus linear rpms using
the CC10?


CC10?
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:41 PM
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Smokie Mountains
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Wow how many threads are there that get a request to "move on" as it were.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:44 PM
c/f
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NC read closer:

The A12 has 25 amp battery wire, your CC10 has 15 amp wire, I also remove downsize
battery wire same as CC10.

Also the motor leads are removed from board. I direct solder leads to board.

Also the JST plug is removed cause I have yet to find a need for programming, wires are just heat shrunk.

Also The CC shrink is of a lighter thinner mil weight, I have same stuff as CC10 on all my cools, I peel off their sticker and stick to board prior to shrink to keep track of model type.

Also to compare apples to apples on all varities I weighed aboved the wire lenths are the same and specific to my MH1 hydros, just adding 1" of wire on motor leads and calling it the same is not. This is a true APPLES TO APPLES test as they are all identical in wire lengths and gauges.

I'd be happy to make your rewire your A12 to a lighter weight, These are just some of the tricks I employ to get me weights lighter than others who just give it a glance over. What I add in A12 use I gain by also removing the pins sockets on my brand new FMA M5 and remove all servo plugs, and direct solder to rx pc board. Now thats ANAL about weight.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:50 PM
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One thing to note is that part of the reason the Ph-10 is so light is because the wires are so skinny.

Even at MAX difference between the two, 8 grams as you said, let see what you get for the 8 grams:
-An on off switch
-Thicker wire
-2 extra amps security
-Dual Bec's
-Arguable more efficient and smoother (I do not think this has been 'officiall' proven, but a lot of people agree on this).

For all that I think it is work it. When you say that most of these boats are near or above 300 grams, that little 8 grams doesnt seem like so much. I know some people like to save every gram, I used to, but then realised planes still fly great a few grams heavier. I even still use *gasp* 7 gram HS-55's Basically it all comes down to personal preference. If you want the lightest MHO around, then more power to you. I'm just saying i like the a-12 better.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c/f
The MH1 at any weight is a thrust vectoring model, NO THRUST NO VECTORING, NO MODEL, Its not that bad, As you get more comfortable with the MH1 and the hot season and minimal airflow in hovers your one day going to wish you had the cool running.

FWIW: Does'nt your CC10 crunch and stutter on starts with the LSr PP??
Is'nt 1/3 or less throttle basically on/off versus linear rpms using
the CC10?
Mine really doesnt shudder on startup to speak of. I have noticed though that if you let the revs get real low and then throttle it sometimes there is a quick grind. It is much more noticeable for some reason when the motor is cold. After its warm I dont really notice it any more.

Anyhow, I'm admitting that there are clear A-12 advantages. Overheat IMO being the biggest advantage. It just that, at least in my measurements, its more than a couple of grams like most people claim. It doubles the weight of the controller. If you say that it still doesnt matter you are the expert. I guess I shouldnt be paying the premium then for 4 gram servos, 4 gram receiver and the like. Guess I need to change the mindset again. It just seems like you ought to be able feel a 4% add to the AUW.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanl2006
For all that I think it is work it. When you say that most of these boats are near or above 300 grams, that little 8 grams doesnt seem like so much. I know some people like to save every gram, I used to, but then realised planes still fly great a few grams heavier. I even still use *gasp* 7 gram HS-55's Basically it all comes down to personal preference. If you want the lightest MHO around, then more power to you. I'm just saying i like the a-12 better.
Again, I'm not disputing the other advantages Ryan. I bought an A-12 and I may even decide to us it on my MHO. Especially in the summer months. Its just that on a relative basis the A-12 is a rock compared to the cc10. If it's worth the weight for the extra advantages then it would make sense to use it.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 07:08 PM
c/f
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Now NC

I'm no expert and when I give a little here I have to take a little there, If I felt safe flying the CC10 on a purple I'd probalby would not have removed my pins on the receiver.

I put to much time in my models and I there are some things I feel are not worth the risk to go with inferior products just for weight. If the polk 4 gram servos did not work out I would be back to my ole reliable GWS Picos at 6 grams. There are many sub 5 gram servos, I wont touch em with a 10' pole.

I'm feelin the 1 1/2 ounce of poly u clearcote you betcha buddy , but once someone comes up and asks where I bought an all molded Hydro, it makes it worth it.

My first one was getting pretty dingy around the beach sand water. If I did not use every trick up my sleeve to get to 11 ounces it would have been easily 14 ounces.

If you just put all the same wire gauge and lengths on the A12 as you have on the CC10 its not trade off in performance as your already using it with the CC10.

FWIW, The small gauge servo lead wire is found in corded mouse from your computer, I pick em up at yard sales for a quarter. I like Sony best.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c/f
NC read closer:

The A12 has 25 amp battery wire, your CC10 has 15 amp wire, I also remove downsize
battery wire same as CC10.

Also the motor leads are removed from board. I direct solder leads to board.

Also the JST plug is removed cause I have yet to find a need for programming, wires are just heat shrunk.

Also The CC shrink is of a lighter thinner mil weight, I have same stuff as CC10 on all my cools, I peel off their sticker and stick to board prior to shrink to keep track of model type.

Also to compare apples to apples on all varities I weighed aboved the wire lenths are the same and specific to my MH1 hydros, just adding 1" of wire on motor leads and calling it the same is not. This is a true APPLES TO APPLES test as they are all identical in wire lengths and gauges.

I'd be happy to make your rewire your A12 to a lighter weight, These are just some of the tricks I employ to get me weights lighter than others who just give it a glance over. What I add in A12 use I gain by also removing the pins sockets on my brand new FMA M5 and remove all servo plugs, and direct solder to rx pc board. Now thats ANAL about weight.
C/F, I understand now how you got to that weight. Sorry I missed it the first time. I didnt read closely, thought it was just text you were repeating from the first thread. What you did makes perfect sense - you sized the contoller for the application. I think I could make those mods if i dont end up burning through the board. If its a multilayer I probably wouldnt attempt it. Thanks for offering to rewire my A-12. I may take you up on it and of course I would insist on paying you to do it. We can finish that conversation on a PM when the time comes. I'll probably experiment with it stock to learn more about it first. If my A-12 were equal to the weight of yours the weight gain would truly be a non-issue.
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 08:01 PM
I wish I was cool like Mo
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Oak Harbor,Washington
Joined Jan 2005
611 Posts
WOW after 4000 posts!! Is that an RCG record? Nice looking boat C/F It is the nicest one I've seen.I have a second boat(MH1) sitting in a box waiting for a LITE BUILD thanks for the tips
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Old Feb 14, 2006, 09:17 PM
Renegade Fun Forever!!
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Fontana, California, United States
Joined Jul 2004
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I'm going to weigh mine as well. It is ABSOLUTELY worth the weight penalty I don't care if it is 3 times the weight. The throttle is SOOOO much more linear and smoother, there really is no comparison! BELIEVE me on this one. I am a HUGE Castle Creations fan, but this time, in this arena, they got SMOKED!! In 3D flight where throttle response is of most critical need, the CR is far and away better than the CC. With the castle, the last 1/3rd of the throttle is basically an on off switch, with the CR, even the last click of throttle is different from the rest! c/f and others tried for a long time to convince me, but I was stubborn to say the least. The first test hop with the CR and it was over!! I still keep up with every upgrade of software that CC offers, and test them all to find the best settings for our motor. But even with almost weekly firmware changes they have not hit the CR target. I am not on CR payroll, and have no ill will towards CC, just speaking the field tested truths, period!! I hope if nothing else those on the groups here know that if I think a competitor is better, I will tell you all. Why do you think that Custom CDR and LS have come so far as motor performance goes Ryan and I talk regularly. Even though we often spar on the groups here, we push each other to make better products for all of you guys. Our motors run better on CR than CC period. I'm certain that Ryans does too. If you ask me, I'll tell you, I want my motors to run the best they can. Why would I want less performance?

Oh yeah All Ryans's motors run really good on BP controllers and CC
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 12:42 AM
Wheeeeee!
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VAFB, California
Joined Oct 2005
276 Posts
Well thanks a whole bunch. Now Ill have to get a CR to put into Miss Monster. Darn it, I was gonna use my Tower Pro 15amp, too.... NO. Shes NOT finished yet. Shes having trouble picking a color for herself.
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 08:22 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
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looks like im going to have to buy a cool running for 2 of my hydro's.
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