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Old Jul 28, 2015, 12:28 PM
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Question
2 Meter Full House on an Airtronics Vanguard 6-Channel

I would like opinions/comments regarding selection of a new 2 meter full house slope-thermal glider to be used with an Airtronics FM Vanguard 6-Channel radio/receiver. Years ago I obtained a reasonable amount of flying experience with the Talon, then Sitar, and then Xica.

1) Is flying a nice 2 meter slope sailplane with the Vanguard radio a reasonable thing to do? The Vanguard radio is in excellent shape and has elevator and aileron dual rates with the aux channel which can provide flaps in two positions.

2) Standard Airtronics dual conversion receiver model 92765 dimensions too large for this application?

3) Will aileron control using two wing mounted servos be practical using a Y harness?

4) Will I be kicking myself in the behind for not buying a programmable radio with better capabilities like the FlySky FS-T6 2.4 Ghz for $56.00 ?

5) Which 2 meter slope-thermal sailplane is suggested?

I welcome your thoughts on any of the above. Thanks, Jim
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 02:28 AM
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With sailplanes "full House" usually refers to a sailplane with 4 (or more) wing servos, and 2 for the tail surfaces. To operate such a sailplane to it's potential you need a transmitter with some fairly sophisticated programming features.

Your Airtronics Vanguard doesn't have such features, and neither does the FlySky transmitter you mentioned.

Do yourself a favor. Download the manual for the Spektrum DX6 transmitter from this link... http://www.horizonhobby.com/pdf/SPM6700-Manual_EN.pdf

The DX6 has the basic mixes required to fly a 6 channel "full house" sailplane. Read the page on "F Mode" (page 15), and the pages on the sailplane programming (pages 38 & 39). These pages cover the basic programming required for a "full house" sailplane.

If the transmitter you are considering doesn't have these programming features, it isn't a sailplane transmitter, and you should look elsewhere, or set your sights on a simpler 4 channel sailplane, which can be flown with just about any basic transmitter.

Ken
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 08:41 AM
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Radio or Lots of Work

I have to agree with Ken here , you need a better Radio. The Alternative is a lot of Work as you have to go old school, Flap Servos installed as twins ( same orientation ) , Aileron servo installed opposite ( and with proper orientation for differential ). So yes you can do a lot but you miss a lot of the cool things that a even a mid 90's Vision does. Trailing Edge Camber, Crow ,Elev-Flap mixing Launch Setting.
Bet you could find an Aitronics Vision Pretty cheap now.

Jim
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 11:12 AM
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It is reasonable to do what you are proposing.
People flew sailplanes like that for years
before computer radios existed. I still do
because I still fly the same planes I had then.

You can put the flaps on the throttle stick.
(Full throttle is flaps up.) Other controls
like normal.

With the old radio, you won't get crow mixing.
V-tail, if you need it, must be done mechanically,
or you can just avoid v-tail planes. Endpoints
and throws will be set mechanically. Vanguard's
do have servo reversing, so you are OK there.

The stick trims will actually be easier than on
the new radios. You can see and feel intuitively
how and where it is set.

The biggest annoyance with the old radios is
charging and carrying a separate transmitter
for each plane. It used to be waiting for the
channel, or other people griping about
you hogging it in that big thermal.
That isn't much of an issue any more.

Jenny
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 11:25 AM
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Thank you Ken and Jim for the responses. I am in agreement it is time for a new radio. Especially if I want to enjoy the full capability "potential" and fine tuning of a quality 2 Meter full house type glider. The DX6 manual describes a lot of capability (the five flight modes) is cool compared to my thoughts of getting the Vanguard radio to provide only 2 flap settings by Y joining up a couple servos and I believe as Jim said this "twins" setup would mess up the mirror symmetry mounting in the wing. I have spent way too much time thinking about making an obsolete radio work for this 2 m full house application. I vote we close this thread. Jim
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 11:30 AM
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As an addition to my previous post.

Go to your local slope soaring site and talk to the people there. You will probably find a significant number of people, having an extremely good time, flying relatively simple models with as few as 2 channels.

While a full house sailplane can be fun, and probably necessary for some slope racing, you don't need complicated models to have a hel* of a good time at the slope.

Go to the local slopes and talk to people, find something simple to start out with, as you get experience you might decide that you don't want, or need anything more complicated than a 2, or 3 channel sailplane for the slope. At the very least, you will develop the knowledge, and skills necessary, when you decide that you do want a "full house" sloper. After all, most people start with a Ford, before they get a Ferrari, and the Ford can be it's own kind of fun.

Check out the local slopes, start simple, and have fun. If you don't know exactly where the local slope sites are in San Diego, there is a "Slope" forum here in R/C Groups. Ask for local help there, and someone will surely help you out.

Have fun
Ken
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 11:35 AM
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I spoke too soon just as Jenny provided her feedback.. I recently picked up my second Vanguard 6 channel on Ebay with same frequency channel number 54. Really like using those Berg and Corona receivers. I guess I'm very very old school but the new capability radios make it hard to say no with all the new bells and whistles like endpoints, throws, flight modes, crow mixing. thx, Jim
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 07:48 PM
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I used to go through all kinds of contortions to
get different airplanes set up exactly the same
to be able to use one transmitter with more
than one receiver. The biggest problem was
getting the servo directions correct. Engines
with throttle arm on opposite side needed a
reversed servo. Same for high wing vs low
wing ( servos mounted upright or upside down).

Getting the idle trim the same on two planes
was also a royal pain. High and low rates were
always a compromise between planes.

Then if anyone was on the same channel, I
couldn't fly any of the planes I brought until
the channel was free.

All that work is done now, so I'm not going
to upgrade them to 2.4 GHz, but anything
new gets 2.4 even though I prefer the
feel of the old transmitters, and especially
the trims. The bells and whistles are just
too addictive.

Jenny
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Old Jul 29, 2015, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimsHobby View Post
I spoke too soon just as Jenny provided her feedback.. I recently picked up my second Vanguard 6 channel on Ebay with same frequency channel number 54. Really like using those Berg and Corona receivers. I guess I'm very very old school but the new capability radios make it hard to say no with all the new bells and whistles like endpoints, throws, flight modes, crow mixing. thx, Jim
Keep in mind that I may be biased toward thermal. My impression is that any thermal glider can do fine on the slope in the right conditions, but that many slope gliders wouldn't be very good for thermal flying.

How much time do you have for setting the airplane up? Programming, a transmitter, especially for the first time, can be a pain in the butt. You can do just fine without the bells and whistles, though you may give up a little bit of performance. I suspect these days the fine art of setting up linkages right may be being forgotten. Even with all the bells and whistles, if you set up to use most of the travel of the servo, you will get more precision and power. Without the bells and whistles, you are pretty much forced to do this.



Quote:
1) Is flying a nice 2 meter slope sailplane with the Vanguard radio a reasonable thing to do? The Vanguard radio is in excellent shape and has elevator and aileron dual rates with the aux channel which can provide flaps in two positions.
yes
Quote:
2) Standard Airtronics dual conversion receiver model 92765 dimensions too large for this application?
Depends on the model.
Quote:
3) Will aileron control using two wing mounted servos be practical using a Y harness?
yes

Quote:
4) Will I be kicking myself in the behind for not buying a programmable radio with better capabilities like the FlySky FS-T6 2.4 Ghz for $56.00 ?
How much does marketing influence you? I still use some very simple radios on my simpler models. For instance, I have a THREE CHANNEL AM transmitter on my Jester. Works fine, including at long range. (I am using a decent, dual conversion receiver, though.) Also a model or two flown with a Vanguard.

5) Which 2 meter slope-thermal sailplane is suggested?
If you happen upon a Bob Martin Katie 2, that might be a good choice, but I haven't seen one in decades. A friend of mine used to fly his for thermal and, I think, slope. It may not have been very fast, though, or very aerobatic, but it appeared to thermal well. In an application similar to yours, and if the landing area was good, I'd probably fly a DLG. Very nimble, wide speed range, etc. Generally I fly them on the flat, though. But I'm sure there are appropriate two meter sailplanes that would work fine. In fact, I'm guessing almost any thermal two meter that has a wide speed range, good handling, and ailerons would be ok. I seem to remember one called the Laser that might fit the bill. On some of them, you might want less dihedral.

Dodgson used to sell a model called a Pivot that had wingerons instead of ailerons. You'd need small servos, and I think a movable rudder would be very helpful. As I recall, it did well in thermals.

If you're "old school", I guess you like to build with balsa, and you might even be receptive to scratch building?
-Silly idea: Windfree with wingerons! (less dihedral, of course) Maybe a bit of "Philips entry" sanded in.

There used to be ailerons shown on the Sagitta 600 plans. Not sure how well it flew, but I was fairly happy with the RES version.

I've wondered if the Ridge Runner (RCM plan from 1975) would do well in thermals as well as on the slope. If it was my project, I'd want a rudder, of course. You're on your own, though. Just an idea.

For more up to date models, I suspect other people will have better suggestions.
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimsHobby View Post
1) Is flying a nice 2 meter slope sailplane with the Vanguard radio a reasonable thing to do?
Can you do it? Sure. Is it reasonable? Depends on what you are expecting to get. Typically a 4 servo wing is set up to use crow for slow landings (flaps go down, ailerons go up), flaps and ailerons mixed together for roll control and camber changing across the full span to greatly expand on the performance envelope. You won't get any of that with your Vanguard, but it certainly can be set up to fly a 4 servo wing without too much trouble if you are willing to give up all the extra features people use these days.


4) Will I be kicking myself in the behind for not buying a programmable radio with better capabilities like the FlySky FS-T6 2.4 Ghz for $56.00 ?[/QUOTE]

Probably. I wouldn't look at the DX-6 as your best choice, though (as was suggested). IMO, at this point in the R/C world the only way to go is a Tx that uses an open source operating system like the FrSky Taranis, Turnigy 9XR Pro, Devo or others. They offer essentially unlimited programming ability that will grow into the future for far less $$$ than the major brand names.

If you really have to have a brand name radio then Spektrum offers more bang for the buck than the others do and receivers are much more reasonably priced than the rest.


Mark
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 12:52 PM
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Take the Mibo Micro Swift sailplane as an example paired with the old airtronics vanguard radio... I've been considering this glider and have no doubt in my skill level that I can fly it just fine with the Vanguard. Just not sure about landing the thing.

Here it is:

http://flightcomp.com/collections/sc...cro-swift-whit

I would think a Vanguard radio should do fine for this sailplane. It does not have the separate flaps, just uses ailerons, elevator, rudder. But the computer radio gives me the opportunity to mix the ailerons and mix the ailerons as flaps too. Does this bell really give you a safer landing capability? I do not fly at pristine locations. The landing environment is usually dirt road and some carpet patches (typically found at hang glider launches). I'm happy if I hit near the carpet and don't tag a big rock! Note the Micro Swift is downsized from my initial desire for a 2 meter sloper.
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmattock View Post
(deleted)I wouldn't look at the DX-6 as your best choice, though (as was suggested). IMO, at this point in the R/C world the only way to go is a Tx that uses an open source operating system like the FrSky Taranis, Turnigy 9XR Pro, Devo or others. They offer essentially unlimited programming ability that will grow into the future for far less $$$ than the major brand names.

If you really have to have a brand name radio then Spektrum offers more bang for the buck than the others do and receivers are much more reasonably priced than the rest.

Mark
I never recommended the DX6. I recommended that he read the DX6 manual, as that transmitter has the basic programming necessary to fly a "full House" sailplane. It might not have all the "bells and whistles", wanted by more advanced competition fliers, but the basics are all there. Once he knows what the basic requirements are, he can evaluate transmitters for their use in a "full House" sailplane.

As for the "open source" transmitters. They might be fun for a computer nerd. However if a person doesn't even know what programming his sailplane requires, how can you expect him to be able to write that programming.

Common since will tell you that the OP needs a sailplane capable transmitter that just works out of the box, he doesn't need a "fan boy" toy, that he might be able to make work, if he's lucky.
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Old Jul 30, 2015, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Barnes View Post
I never recommended the DX6. I recommended that he read the DX6 manual, as that transmitter has the basic programming necessary to fly a "full House" sailplane.
Ah, fair enough. I misread that part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Barnes View Post
As for the "open source" transmitters. They might be fun for a computer nerd. However if a person doesn't even know what programming his sailplane requires, how can you expect him to be able to write that programming.
Two years ago I would have agreed with you. Today there are so many model templates, scripts and support available that it is no longer a free for all on the programming side of things and OP could get likely do just fine without any more hardship than learning to program a Spektrum or Futaba Tx.


Mark
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Old Jul 31, 2015, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mmattock View Post
Ah, fair enough. I misread that part.



Two years ago I would have agreed with you. Today there are so many model templates, scripts and support available that it is no longer a free for all on the programming side of things and OP could get likely do just fine without any more hardship than learning to program a Spektrum or Futaba Tx.


Mark
When you can buy an "open source" transmitter with installed templates, and scripts, that has a printed instruction manual that explains how to use the templates (and scripts), and that has manufacturer, or distributor level support, then an "open source" transmitter could probably be considered as something to recommend to a beginner.

When I think of "open source" transmitters, I think of Heathkit, or old time Radio Shack. Lets see, I need a multi-meter, do I want to use it now, or do I want to buy a box of parts and build it myself? (Note that I still have the Radio Shack multi-meter I built when I was about 13 years old.)

Someone starting out has enough to learn, he needs a multi-meter, he doesn't need the headache of building the dam thing. Not that that can't be enjoyable in and of itself, it's just one more complication for someone just starting out, that they really don't need.

Ken
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