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Old Dec 15, 2015, 08:30 PM
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Q500 Aileron Torque Rod and Linkage Discussion

Racers,

I have sold a hand full of Ricochet kits now and I am looking at making a few enhancement to the hardware package.

I had hopped to include the black steel pin Hayse clevis's in the kit for the aileron 2/56 rods to connect to the strip aileron torque rods. Unfortunately they have been discontinued. This drove me to 4/40 torque rod and 4/40 ball links (just like the tail). Now I am getting some feed back that 4/40 torque rods might not be ideal for 426(to much flex).

A few guys have recommended that I switch to the Dubro #558 1/8" Di strip aileron rods. Problem: they have a 6/32 thread, and nobody makes a ball that screws on (2/56 and 4/40 only).

Poll: 426 racers, what is your preferred torque rod set up and what clevis do you use?

I have evaluated switching to a pre-drilled torque tube assembly(like a composite wing) but found you must rout a sizeable trench in the wing to install it.

I am also evaluating a Kevlar hinge that would be installed during the bagging process. I am not a fan of Monocote over the active hinge on the top of the skin, one thought is to install the Kevlar in between the skin and the foam, and make a very small "V" cut in the top skin on the hinge line. I have been banging my head against the wall trying to come up with a pre-fabed hinge solution that can be installed during the bagging process that can be glassed or Monocoted after the fact.

Input? Hit me with all you got!

Cheers, Dave
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Old Dec 15, 2015, 10:15 PM
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Dave, I have been using the 1/8" torque rods on my warbird racers with good success. The clevis and pivot attachments are Nelson hardware and is quite unique. I have also been running a skin hinge for elevator and rudder for a season now with good results using non released peel ply as the hinge. Im at work now but I can post some pictures with more details tomorrow morning.
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Old Dec 15, 2015, 10:26 PM
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Thanks.
Peel-Ply must be allot cheaper then Kevlar. Good input. Please post the hardware pic's as well.

Cheers, Dave
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Old Dec 15, 2015, 10:31 PM
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Yes, actually its simply nylon fabric that can be found at fabric stores, last time I bought some It was 2 yards for 3.50. Roughly enough for 10 airplanes. Its held up really well considering its a 520 sq in airplane powered with a YS 115
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 06:48 AM
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Hi Dave,

I too use the Dubro 558 but with the 2-56 Sullivan gold-N clevis on all of my pylon racer ailerons. Never had one fail

I have always used the Hayes clevis on Q-40 Elevators.....was also bummed when discontinued. Fortunately I found a hobby shop with a ton in stock and grabbed all of them.

A guy up here that used to sheet wings for guys used peel ply or taffeta under the skins. It was plenty strong, but as I remember he was not cutting the v-notch which was causing issues. The V-notch sounds like a good idea
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 08:45 AM
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Dave,

I also use the Dubro #558 (6/32 with HD nylon clevis) on the ailerons and 4-40 rods with ball links for the elevators for 426 with no issues.

For a sheeted foam wing I use bias cut G10/FR4 sheet .010" for the aileron hinges and .005" for the tails. If you use mylars for the top skin application, you can use peel ply or rip stitch nylon for the hinge, as long as it is sandwiched between two layers of fiberglass.

I attached some pictures.
1. Aileron top view showing the G10 hinge under the final layer of glass.
2. Dubro #558 linkage in bottom of wing in trough
3. Elevator G10 hinge - just glued in.
4. Elevator after final glass
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk07 View Post
Hi Dave,

I too use the Dubro 558 but with the 2-56 Sullivan gold-N clevis on all of my pylon racer ailerons. Never had one fail

I have always used the Hayes clevis on Q-40 Elevators.....was also bummed when discontinued. Fortunately I found a hobby shop with a ton in stock and grabbed all of them.

A guy up here that used to sheet wings for guys used peel ply or taffeta under the skins. It was plenty strong, but as I remember he was not cutting the v-notch which was causing issues. The V-notch sounds like a good idea
Do you use a jam nut on the clevis?

Thanks, Dave
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorpionRacing View Post
Dave,

I also use the Dubro #558 (6/32 with HD nylon clevis) on the ailerons and 4-40 rods with ball links for the elevators for 426 with no issues.

For a sheeted foam wing I use bias cut G10/FR4 sheet .010" for the aileron hinges and .005" for the tails. If you use mylars for the top skin application, you can use peel ply or rip stitch nylon for the hinge, as long as it is sandwiched between two layers of fiberglass.

I attached some pictures.
1. Aileron top view showing the G10 hinge under the final layer of glass.
2. Dubro #558 linkage in bottom of wing in trough
3. Elevator G10 hinge - just glued in.
4. Elevator after final glass
Look goods good Scott. The guys that know how to glass will do this, I am trying to develop a hinge that requires no lamination on the outside of the skin. I am afraid it is too much effort for the first time builder. What I am envisioning is a wing that comes pre-slotted on the bottom, so all the builder has to do is make the two control surface end cuts, push the torque rods in, fill, done. But what ever the method, the monocote need to be relieved on the top some how so that it dose not wrinkle and pull away.

That's the challenge.

Thanks, Dave
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 10:38 AM
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Dave,

I also use the Dubro #558 for the ailerons and prefer the Dubro kwik link clevis, http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXD885&P=7, on 2-56 rod for the aileron pushrods. Since I make the pushrods as short as possible there is no flex with the 2-56 rod. I really like the "keeper" that comes with those clevis over using fuel line as they don't crack over time. The only down fall to the clevis is that you have to use a jam nut since it's an all metal clevis.

As for the hinge material I do it pretty much just like Scott does with the .010" fiberglass sheet. I use a router attachment on my Dremel tool and route out the area for it to sit in. I've covered this type of hinge with both fiberglass cloth and monokote. The only "problem" I had was with the monokote getting bubbles under it at the hinge because the fiberglass doesn't let the gas escape like the balsa does. I also make a fiberglass wingtip for all my sheeted wings and have covered them with monokote, never had any lifting of the covering.

I've attached the pictures that I have with me as follows:
1. Wing tip - pre clean up
2. Wing tip installed
3. Wing tip installed
4. Tail showing cut out for torque rod and routed for fiberglass sheet.
5. Tail with fiberglass sheet hinge material installed.
6. Monokoted wing with both fiberglass hinging and fiberglass tips.
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 11:07 AM
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wow on the monocote job! Looks great.

Have you had any problems with the monocote going over the fiberglass tip? I have been looking at that prospect as well.

We are all builders, so this stuff seems easy. I caused a bit of stir on the NMPRA forum last week. The part that we as pylon racers are missing, is the next generation of racers are not going to want to build. The idea of vacuum bagging anything is going to be a non-starter, or at least until they get hooked. The only way to "hook them" is with a kit that is so easy to build, that a cave man can do it!

The other thing I am looking at is a spit stab that already has the v angle beveled in the root. You would tape the two halfs to the table flat with two sided tape, sand the airfoil in, flip and repeat, then just glue the two together with the pre-beved angle. Again, I am trying to break down the hard stuff....

Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming!
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 11:14 AM
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Dave,

I also use the Dubro 1/8" torque rod assy. I use the plastic threaded horn that comes with the assy. I too use the standard "BLACK" clevis sold by Dubro. After the airplane is done and finished I put a single drop of thin CA on the threads as they pass through the clevis.

As the Hayes clevis is not available, I too have used this method on my QM models.

DK

3/32 or 4-40 torque rods for 426 will flutter, been there done that. FYI.
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Yost View Post
I am also evaluating a Kevlar hinge that would be installed during the bagging process. ... [O]ne thought is to install the Kevlar in between the skin and the foam, and make a very small "V" cut in the top skin on the hinge line.
Dave,

This is how I do it on all my models now, including Q40s. Instead of Kevlar I use fiberglass cloth or that open-weave, 1/8" grid self-adhesive drywall stuff. By the time you've got it trapped between the skin and the foam with resin to hold it, the material doesn't really matter much. But I do take care to cut the material on a bias, so that all the glass fibers run at 45 degrees in relation to the hinge line. Also don't get the resin real thick in that area, otherwise it gets brittle & can crack.

FWIW, YMMV, & other incomprehensible acronyms ...

d.
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 11:29 AM
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Thank you Dan.

I just placed an order of 10 Dubro 558
'S and have rev'd the Kit BOM.

Dave
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:38 PM
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I to was planning on doing gap less hinges on my new Q500s...
I have peel ply like somebody suggested. but in my very limited experience with it, i thought it was designed to absorb excess resin? and "peel" off.. so i guess my concern is how it bonds. cloth on either side? does that stiffen up the hinge??...
also, if the aileron is cut out after wards, when and how does the torque rods go in?? before bagging?
Im old school, and have always cut out the aileron after bagging, put in fiberglass hinges, cut groove in wing to install Rods....
maybe i should just stick with that.... lol
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 01:03 PM
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Ok. A couple pics as promised. The aileron linkage is Nelson Hardware, not sure if he is still around, the same Nelson that does the water based paints.

The skin hinge, basically what I do is to sand the stab to shape. I apply 2 layers of 1.4 oz cloth to the bottom of the surface. Then 1 layer of 1.4 oz cloth to the top surface, a strip of non released peel ply or nylon fabric and then another layer of 1.4 oz cloth. Then released peel ply and breather both sides and bag at 8-10 hg. After bagging the edges get cleaned up and I remove a 1/16" strip of glass at the hinge line. I take some 1/32 G10 and wrap some sticky backed sandpaper around it and sand through the balsa to the first layer of cloth at the top. Done, surface is hinged. The only warning I would give is to not move the surface much. It will have plenty of throw for flight but if you flex the hinge more the 3/8" one direction you could damage it.
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