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Old Mar 01, 2014, 03:50 PM
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Some progress

Mainmast fighting top is test fitted. All the details have not yet been added but wanted to prove the concept of mast assembly/disassembly. Seems like it will be OK.







Davits are test fitted.


Ships common pumps. Although I messed up on the outlet fixture(was using a frigates as an example and got carried away so didn't pay attention to the direction of the outlets) oops. Will have another set made with the correct outlet direction and these will maybe be used on another project. These will allow me to at least locate the holes etc. for Scorpion's and then I can just plug in the new ones when I get them.

These will be painted and weathered like everything else...only base coat of red for now.






More tomorrow(and even more on Monday!)

Tim
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Old Mar 01, 2014, 08:47 PM
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gee i'd like to be a mouse in your wall and watch you work day after day....providing there's a hole in the wall i can peep through
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Old Mar 02, 2014, 03:06 PM
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Thanks Vic, Not sure it would be very exciting.

Pumps shown in position(will be replaced with revised version)




Also mounted the final slider-blocks for the brace servos and have them operating smoothly. will come back to this part later on for the control arms for steering etc.










Tim
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Old Mar 04, 2014, 08:59 PM
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Deck mounts for the 32 pounder carronades.

First coat of paint only




with slide/pivot fastener mounted






The Deans plugs will have a male plug with a tab on it plugged in when not in use to keep water out of the plug itself. more on this soon.

Working out the mast heights. I have both fighting tops completed and will start on the bow sprit as well.

Rudder, tiller and chains will be this weekend.

Tim
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 12:28 AM
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sheesh...such detail....which museum will be displaying it, in between sailing it
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 03:24 PM
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Thanks Vic,

It will reside in my office, here at home, when not on the water. : ) the living room if my wife lets me. LOL

The lower mainmast length is pretty much set, not the topmast. on the foremast, I was a little confused. The kit uses the dimensions taken from Irene(from what I can tell) but in the book "the brig irene", there is a comparison of the spars on a Cruizer class brig and the brig Irene, they are different. The height of my foremast is per the Cruizer class drawing but I'm not 100% sure I will keep it there.





Foremast Top


Mainmast Top




Deck mounts for the carronades shown in position.






Tim
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Old Mar 06, 2014, 10:36 PM
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Revised pumps. YAY!



New rudder






Lots to do this weekend!

Tim
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Old Mar 07, 2014, 12:30 AM
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gee i wonder how much this will end up costing you also, will you have to reinforce those holes for pins with brass or?
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Old Mar 07, 2014, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBowman View Post
The lower mainmast length is pretty much set, not the topmast. on the foremast, I was a little confused. The kit uses the dimensions taken from Irene(from what I can tell) but in the book "the brig irene", there is a comparison of the spars on a Cruizer class brig and the brig Irene, they are different. The height of my foremast is per the Cruizer class drawing but I'm not 100% sure I will keep it there.
Tim
Tim,
I found the Petreus book confusing too. The figures weren't consistent with the text and dimensions on drawings were unclear. Seems that general ship info was mixed in with Irene specific info, often without clear distinction.
Some thoughts on mast and spar dimensions:

General appearance:
I think the stock kit topmasts result in too long-looking topsails. The forecourse "looks" good, but the topsails seem long. The t'gallants also look OK.
See Syren post 305:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=305
Note the sides of the combined sail profile. The Syren stock model sail combined-side profile bulges outward at the topsail yard vs. the prototype profile being slimmer at the topsail yard. The latter "looks" more prototypical to me. So yard lengths need to be examined too.

Performance:
In the post 305 comparison, the Syren stock model sail area is larger than the referenced prototype sail area.
Syren is very fast, and minimal sail is used in even moderate winds, so going to a smaller sail area (if that's what your prototype info indicates) would be no problem - actually probably preferred.
Also, I wonder specifically about the large area of the topsails on Syren, and whether that contributes to her nosing-in a bit at speed. The whole concept of sail area COE calculations might be applicable. See Jerry Todd and Brooks' posts early in the Design Details...Sqr Riggers thread.
Jerry and Brooks should post on all this here - they know a lot more than me about all the masting and sail info and functionality.

When finalizing mast lengths, also consider where all the yards will be at different sail reefpoints. The biggest challenge on Syren was tweaking the yard and sail rigging design to keep the look somewhat prototypical, yet allow adjustment for fast and easy changeout of yards with full, reefed or furled sails. At each yard position, the braces need to be kept at proper tension, lifts need adjustment, and interferences with standing rigging need to be considered. If you sail, you will need multiple quick-change yards with different sail settings for convenient changeout (or you can design the yards and sails for reefing/furling in place, but I couldn't figure out an easy system to do that and maintain prototypical looks. You likely can....)

It's not that complicated really, but planning is required. My net on all this is that if you follow a valid set of prototype masting and rigging plans, all is likely to work well on the sailing model. But do allow for future tweaks.

Like the gun work, I think I had as much fun with the running rigging.
Jimmy James (from Model Boat Mayhem), now sadly passed on, was an old sailing captain I corresponded with. He said every captain "customized" his ship for the conditions, using any available spars, sail, etc. He also said all sails were stained and dirty - not as white as we see in paintings and models. Look at his models and rigging - I found it very helpful.

Jerry, Brooks - your thoughts???

Pictures - Syren with reefed driver, skirted driver, dropped yards with furled sails.
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Old Mar 07, 2014, 11:37 AM
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Differences

SC&H say the model to be based on the Grasshopper, which was captured and became the Dutch brig Irene and was eventually broken up in 1822.

The British had gun brigs and brig sloops. Gun brigs typically were shallower, carried lighter guns and commanded by a lieutenant. Brig sloops, like the Cruiser class boats, were meant for duty anywhere, were heavier, deeper, and commanded by a Master & Commander. Cruiser herself served in the channel, the Baltic, the Indian Ocean, and the on the American station, as did many of her class.

The British had a more standardized set up for masts and spars at home, but there were times, of course, when spars had to be gotten elsewhere to replace those lost in action, weather, etc. That replacement might be from another vessels spares, a tree cut onshore, or whatever was on board. That replacement might then be temporary until a proper spar could be had, or be close enough to become permanent for a time. Remember, you change a topmast's length and you change the height of the tops'ls, the standing rigging, the run of your running rigging, and of course, the balance of the rig and how the boat will perform. A seemingly small change can be a major overhaul with major consequences, not something a Naval lieutenant or commander could typically afford since such changes would come from their pocket.

Irene was captured and re-rigged eventually to Dutch standards. I have much the same issue with Macedonian. Her 1818 American spar dimensions are significantly different than the British standard for 38 gun frigates. The American spars have doublings 1/3 longer the length of the British standard and the whole rig comes out much different than how she looked under British colors. Comparing Irene to Grasshopper you will find much the same issue. (BTW Tim, I'll have that data for you when you get to working on Spartan)

You'll also find many British brigs towards 1810 and later technically becoming snows. A built up and banded mast was stronger and and easier to make given shortages in materials. Sail hoops don't operate on banded masts so a Spencer, or snow mast made it easier. By the 1820's naval brigs were pretty much snows, and the Americans were pretty much that way from the start. Jimmy James felt the snow was an American "fascination" despite my producing a pile of contemporary art of British brigs, war and merchant, with obvious snow masts.

In the end, Tim, you're not building Irene, a captured vessel, but a vessel built in late 1803 and sold in 1819 - a British brig of war her entire life. I would go with the standard spar dimensions. I'll look and see what Lees shows in that regard.
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Old Mar 07, 2014, 11:27 PM
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Thank you Dan...thank you Jerry.

Will get the top mast's lengths done tomorrow. These masts are still only to get all the lengths finalized. Then I'll make the final masts that will be used.

Jerry, you are correct. It is a British ship and was for its entire service and I'll try and represent the spars accordingly. Funny you mention the masts and sail hoops. I was wondering how that would work but planned on having the reinforcement on the masts. Hmmm.

Dan, thanks for the information on the sails. I do remember your posts regarding them and will revisit again. Hope I have your patience when it comes to tuning the running rigging. Ha ha

Jerry.... Your drawing looks really good.

More this weekend
Tim
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Old Mar 08, 2014, 02:23 AM
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As for Lees (The Masting and Rigging of British Ships of War 1625-1860 ISBN: 0-87021-948-0)
Appendix I gives the proportions of masts, spars, and rigging. There's nothing specific to brigs, but you might compare this to the model and the specs in the Irene book and see what you get. Remember the lengths given on the lower masts and bowsprit is the full length of the stick, and therefore includes the bury.

The main mast is the length of the lower deck and the extreme beam of the ship divided by 2.
The main topmast is 6/10th the length of the main mast.
The main t'gallant mast is 1/2 the length of the topmast.
The main royal mast is 7/10th of the t'gallant mast. (These are very often a single spar)
The foremast is 9/10th the main mast. The other fore mast sections are proportionate to the fore mast as they were for the main mast.
I'll skip the mizzen lengths here.
The bowsprit is 6/10ths the main mast's length.
The jib boom is .715 the length of the bowsprit.
The flying jib boom is.92 the length of the bowsprit. (note, half or more of this spar doubles the jib boom)

There's no mention of the doublings, which greatly effects the over all length of the masts. I found that information elsewhere, but will have to dig it up again.
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Old Mar 08, 2014, 05:34 AM
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Thanks Jerry,

That was something that crossed my mind too. These proportion standards are also in the Patreus book and was how I was planning on determining (best as I can) the top mast lengths. I have also been cross referencing both HMS Diana and HMS Pandora spar proportions. Although both are frigates, I figure they will have some of that proportion information too to check against.

I know this seems like a silly thing to get wrapped around but since I'm making new masts, why not. ; ). Yes it would be simpler to just use the lengths of the kit parts but this is part of the fun for me. Will post results when I have them.

Thanks again Jerry
Tim

By the way, great info on the brigs and sloops. I was under the impression Scorpion would be commanded by a Lieutenant-ranked officer in the position of Captain. I guess that's where the rank of Master Commander comes in. In between Lieutenant and Post Captain. The Cruizer class brigs carry as much firepower as some Post Ships.
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Old Mar 08, 2014, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBowman View Post
...Dan, thanks for the information on the sails...
Tim
I know that you want to get the model masting prototypically correct. What I was suggesting is that you pre-check the sail sail shapes and appearance before finalizing masts, since masting will define the yard and sail dimensions. You may want to tweak the mast dim's within a prototypical range.
I really think Syren sail profile could look better had I thought of all this when building.
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Old Mar 08, 2014, 02:26 PM
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Thanks Dan. Understood.

My main thing at the moment is the lower masts. So when I lay out the chains in their final spot, the angles are correct. Want to get the hull, up to the fighting tops pretty much done before the water test.

Off to the shop now after a morning of my daughter's softball!..

Tim
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