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Old Feb 11, 2013, 10:51 PM
Electric Glider Nut
timography's Avatar
Australia, WA, Perth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
Not the answere I was looking for, but thanks

Ralph
Flaperons - use Flaperons!!

Thats how I've done it with my Spektrum radio to get camber, relfex, crow and normal flaps.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:13 AM
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United States, TN, Johnson City
Joined Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
Not the answere I was looking for, but thanks

Ralph
HH has already done it for you.
http://http://www.horizonhobby.com/pdf/DX8_Setups.pdf
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:20 PM
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So I had a very strange thing happen when I changed props today,, maybe someone can explain it. Sooo,, I decided since I needed to move my CG fowArd a bit,, I'd put on the 15gram heavier aernought turbo spinner,, and since I was doing that might as well try a slightly bigger prop,,, so,,, I went from a 13x6.5 aeronaught on a stock E flite spinner to a 14x6 aeronaught with a aeronaught spinner,, with me?? My amp draw , checked several times with the 13x6.5 static was between 55-56 amps,, so then after I changed to aeronaught spinner and proped up to a 14x6,, I checked again,, now I get 45 amps!!!
Weird huh??? I check it 3x just to be sure yup 45- 46 amps,, should've been a little higher or about the same I would think,,, hmmmm. Soooo,,,, just for giggles I decide to try the E Flite 14x8 prop which has slightly narrower shoulders than the aeronaught props,, now I get about 55-56 amps,,, WOW!!!! About the same as I WAS getting previously using the 13x6.5 and E Flite spinner,, very weird!!! Maybe e flite spinner was rubbing against nose slightly??
Or,,, maybe E flite spinner not dynamically balanced as well??? The aeronaught DOES have a very different design than the E Flite spinner,, the e flite spinner doesnt have a backplate as where the aeronaught does. I'm at a loss to explain
But I'm happy about it. :-)
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 07:03 PM
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Airman74, you left out the most import part of that prop change. How was the climb on the 14X6 compared to the 13X6.5.

It would not surprise me if it was just as good on lower watts.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:46 PM
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Ya, AEAJR ,, havnt gotten to try,, had to go to work :-(. Darn work always messes with my flying time. I'm off tommorow,, very easy to change prop blades on the aeronaught spinner so ill try both,, the 14x6 DOES seem like it would be the most effecient doesn't it?? I kinda equate requirements of an e powered sailplane to a 3D plane sorta,, in 3d cause we want vertical and hovering capability we tend to pitch down and increase diameter in general, all other things being equal.
Stay tuned. ;-)
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:07 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timography View Post
Flaperons - use Flaperons!!

Thats how I've done it with my Spektrum radio to get camber, relfex, crow and normal flaps.
Alright !!

That what I thought. The E-Flite site shows 2 Ail and 2 Flaps in their setup. I have been reading aeajr posts from 2009 to now and from what I understand, Flaperons allow a better and slower landing approach.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 PM
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Since my name has been mentioned, let me help out with some terms, as I understand them because I think we have a terms issue. We are also talking about mixes and how mixes are used may vary from radio to radio.

Let me define things as I use them and the mixes I use. I have a Futaba 9C Super that has sailplane programming.

Flaperons - This is a mix in my radio that is used when the plane has no flaps so I can use ailerons as flaps based on the flapperon mix in the radio. My Easy Glider is set up this way. I would not expect this to appy on a full house sailplane since it has flaps. At least I would not use that mix in my radio on a plane like the Mystique.

Aileron to flap mixing or flaps following ailerons, is a mix when the flaps move in the same direction as the ailerons. This is done to reduce the amount we need to move the ailerons to minimize drag. One might call this flapperons but I would say it is a missuse and confusing use of the term. This requires that the flaps are each on their own channel and that your radio has a mix that will do this. I would not use the flapperon mix for this for the Mystique .

Full trailing edge camber control. This is the ability to change the trim of the full trailling edge. This can done with the flaps on a Y cable as the flaps will move together. Your radio would typically have a mix called camber or it might have a "speed/reflex" mix. You might also use crow or butterfly that allows you to change the offset of the trailing edge. Different radios have different names and different mixes.

In my radio I have a

speed/reflex mix - full trailing edge up - I have it set on a switch so it goes to the same spot every time. My reflex/speed mix also has the ability to add in elevator compensation if I wish.

Camber - Full trailing edge down a little, again with elevator comp, for thermals. I have it on a switch.

Flap to elevator - This is my preferred landing mix on most of my gliders. No aileron involvement. I have it on the left stick. It changes the glide path and lowers the stall speed. Some radios put it on a 3 way switch.

Crow/butterfly - this is a landing mix that gives me a variable mix that I have assigned to my left stick. Typically crow is set so that the ailerons go up as the flaps go down to create drag and provide a lot of breaking action. It changes the glide path. Depending on the % aileron to %flap it may or may not change the stall speed.

Using the crow/butterfly mix I could have the ailerons go down instead to create full span flaps. Again, someone might call this flapperons, but I would consider this an incorrect use of the word as Iam not using teh flapperon mix. This would lower the stall speed a lot and let me land very slowly.

So, on my full house gliders, based on my radio, I have no use for the flapperon mix. Your radio may be different.


Did that help or did I just create confusion? Different radios have different mixes and sometimes different names for those mixes. And sometimes we use mixes in unusual ways to create mixes that we don't have. So, in a DX7 you might actually use the flapperon mix to try to try to create a mix that is something like one of the mixes I use.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:14 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
314 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
Since my name has been mentioned, let me help out with some terms, as I understand them because I think we have a terms issue. We are also talking about mixes and how mixes are used may vary from radio to radio.

Let me define things as I use them and the mixes I use. I have a Futaba 9C Super that has sailplane programming.

Flaperons - This is a mix in my radio that is used when the plane has no flaps so I can use ailerons as flaps based on the flapperon mix in the radio. My Easy Glider is set up this way. I would not expect this to appy on a full house sailplane since it has flaps. At least I would not use that mix in my radio on a plane like the Mystique.

Aileron to flap mixing or flaps following ailerons, is a mix when the flaps move in the same direction as the ailerons. This is done to reduce the amount we need to move the ailerons to minimize drag. One might call this flapperons but I would say it is a missuse and confusing use of the term. This requires that the flaps are each on their own channel and that your radio has a mix that will do this. I would not use the flapperon mix for this for the Mystique .

Full trailing edge camber control. This is the ability to change the trim of the full trailling edge. This can done with the flaps on a Y cable as the flaps will move together. Your radio would typically have a mix called camber or it might have a "speed/reflex" mix. You might also use crow or butterfly that allows you to change the offset of the trailing edge. Different radios have different names and different mixes.

In my radio I have a

speed/reflex mix - full trailing edge up - I have it set on a switch so it goes to the same spot every time. My reflex/speed mix also has the ability to add in elevator compensation if I wish.

Camber - Full trailing edge down a little, again with elevator comp, for thermals. I have it on a switch.

Flap to elevator - This is my preferred landing mix on most of my gliders. No aileron involvement. I have it on the left stick. It changes the glide path and lowers the stall speed. Some radios put it on a 3 way switch.

Crow/butterfly - this is a landing mix that gives me a variable mix that I have assigned to my left stick. Typically crow is set so that the ailerons go up as the flaps go down to create drag and provide a lot of breaking action. It changes the glide path. Depending on the % aileron to %flap it may or may not change the stall speed.

Using the crow/butterfly mix I could have the ailerons go down instead to create full span flaps. Again, someone might call this flapperons, but I would consider this an incorrect use of the word as Iam not using teh flapperon mix. This would lower the stall speed a lot and let me land very slowly.

So, on my full house gliders, based on my radio, I have no use for the flapperon mix. Your radio may be different.


Did that help or did I just create confusion? Different radios have different mixes and sometimes different names for those mixes. And sometimes we use mixes in unusual ways to create mixes that we don't have. So, in a DX7 you might actually use the flapperon mix to try to try to create a mix that is something like one of the mixes I use.
aeajr

I got my flaperon idea from this post (see below). This is a huge learning curve for me and I may have misunderstood. My thick skull needs to understand this. LOL.

Oct 30, 2009, 04:33 AM
Post 9
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1134127

Typically, during programming a flapperon function for spoilerons you will need to use negative numbers in the menu. That surprises many people.

I have many planes set up with flapperons where I can deflect up for spoilerons, or down for flapperons, according to my preference at the time. I use this on my Easy Glider, my Sky Runner and my XP-5 DL glider, just to name 3.

My experience is that flapperons, down, will slow the plane more effectively and allow you to land more slowly. Combine the downward deflection with some down elevator till the plane remains essentially level when you deploy the flapperons or it could "baloon up and stall.

Spoilerons work well when you want to get the plane down, either from height, or near the growd. Again you want to mix in some elevator to help keep the plane level when you deploy the spoilerons or it can tend to stall. On some planes that will be up elevator and some it will be down. In gusty conditions I use the spoilerons to "stick" the plane when the wind might want to lift it, just as I am landing.

Experiment with your elevator mix while you are up at least 50 feet so you can see what the plane will do while leaving yourself room to recover if it does something bad.

Flapperons increase the lift of the wing, allowing it to fly more slowly. They also increase the drag which slows the plane.

Spoilerons decrease the lift of the wing allowing it to decend more steeply without diving so you can lose height fast while maintaining a moderate air speed. A combination of spoilerons and up elevator will really slow the plane since it wants to climb but you have decreased the lift of the wing.

If you can assign the function to a slider or a dial, you may be able to have both. Or if you have them on a 3 way switch, you can deflect up or down as you see fit. Then you can see which you like better. Or you may find you like them both, but for different reasons to be used at different times.

On a hotliner you may also want use "snap flaps" in conjunction with flapperons. This would deflect both ailerons ( flapperons ) up with down elevator and down with up elevator. This allows you to make much tighter turns and loops. It can also allow you to make more square loops, or so I am told. It would be nice if this could be on a switch so you can turn the mix on and off, depending on how you want to use it.

Start with very very small deflections of the ailerons to see how it works, then build up during testing. You will probably only add a few MM or less than 1/4 inch of deflection but the effect can be dramatic at speed.

Not sure what mixes your radio has but I would expect it has these.

Flapperons can also help you fly your hotliner as a thermal glider. When in lift you can set up a "thermal" mix that drops the flapperons just a couple of MM making for a more undercambered wing, giving you more lift when in a thermal.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:39 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
314 Posts
I found my problem

Flaperons - This is a mix in my radio that is used when the plane has no flaps so I can use ailerons as flaps based on the flapperon mix in the radio. My Easy Glider is set up this way. I would not expect this to appy on a full house sailplane since it has flaps. At least I would not use that mix in my radio on a plane like the Mystique.

I thought that flaps could be used with ailerons in some sort of mix, making them flaperons. Now your flaperon explanation makes perfect sense.

Thanks Ralph

.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerdan View Post
aeajr

I got my flaperon idea from this post (see below). This is a huge learning curve for me and I may have misunderstood. My thick skull needs to understand this. LOL.

Oct 30, 2009, 04:33 AM
Post 9
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1134127

Typically, during programming a flapperon function for spoilerons you will need to use negative numbers in the menu. That surprises many people.

I have many planes set up with flapperons where I can deflect up for spoilerons, or down for flapperons, according to my preference at the time. I use this on my Easy Glider, my Sky Runner and my XP-5 DL glider, just to name 3.

My experience is that flapperons, down, will slow the plane more effectively and allow you to land more slowly. Combine the downward deflection with some down elevator till the plane remains essentially level when you deploy the flapperons or it could "baloon up and stall.

Spoilerons work well when you want to get the plane down, either from height, or near the growd. Again you want to mix in some elevator to help keep the plane level when you deploy the spoilerons or it can tend to stall. On some planes that will be up elevator and some it will be down. In gusty conditions I use the spoilerons to "stick" the plane when the wind might want to lift it, just as I am landing.

Experiment with your elevator mix while you are up at least 50 feet so you can see what the plane will do while leaving yourself room to recover if it does something bad.

Flapperons increase the lift of the wing, allowing it to fly more slowly. They also increase the drag which slows the plane.

Spoilerons decrease the lift of the wing allowing it to decend more steeply without diving so you can lose height fast while maintaining a moderate air speed. A combination of spoilerons and up elevator will really slow the plane since it wants to climb but you have decreased the lift of the wing.

If you can assign the function to a slider or a dial, you may be able to have both. Or if you have them on a 3 way switch, you can deflect up or down as you see fit. Then you can see which you like better. Or you may find you like them both, but for different reasons to be used at different times.

On a hotliner you may also want use "snap flaps" in conjunction with flapperons. This would deflect both ailerons ( flapperons ) up with down elevator and down with up elevator. This allows you to make much tighter turns and loops. It can also allow you to make more square loops, or so I am told. It would be nice if this could be on a switch so you can turn the mix on and off, depending on how you want to use it.

Start with very very small deflections of the ailerons to see how it works, then build up during testing. You will probably only add a few MM or less than 1/4 inch of deflection but the effect can be dramatic at speed.

Not sure what mixes your radio has but I would expect it has these.

Flapperons can also help you fly your hotliner as a thermal glider. When in lift you can set up a "thermal" mix that drops the flapperons just a couple of MM making for a more undercambered wing, giving you more lift when in a thermal.
OK, the issue is context. This was in response to the question "Difference Between Spoilerons and Flaperons?" which was posted at the top of that page. Doesn't really have anything to do with the Mystique. Note that none of the planes I mention have flaps.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 05:18 PM
Aka: Ralph
Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Nov 2012
314 Posts
Thanks again aeajr.

Its starting to sink in
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 05:18 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
Flaperons - This is a mix in my radio that is used when the plane has no flaps so I can use ailerons as flaps based on the flapperon mix in the radio. My Easy Glider is set up this way. I would not expect this to appy on a full house sailplane since it has flaps. At least I would not use that mix in my radio on a plane like the Mystique.

I thought that flaps could be used with ailerons in some sort of mix, making them flaperons. Now your flaperon explanation makes perfect sense.

Thanks Ralph

.
Well ...

If you were to put the left aileron and the left flap on a Y cable together so they moved in the same direction, and did the same thing on the right, then you could use the flapperon mix to manage these. You would no longer have ailerons and flaps you would have flapperons. You might have to re-cut and re-hinge the flaps so they could move up and down equally, like ailerons. It would be as if they were solid all the way across on each wing. You could manage camber and reflex and use flap to elevator to land. No crow would be possible.

Probably not a terrible set-up if your radio is limited.

I have a mix that gives me this effect, the aileron to flap mix discussed above. No Y cables. I can turn it off and I retain full and separate control of the ailerons and flaps so I can work them separately if I wish. The flaps go down 50% of the ailerons but only about 5% of the up of the ailerons because they are not cut or hinged like ailerons.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 09:23 PM
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman74 View Post
So I had a very strange thing happen when I changed props today,, maybe someone can explain it. Sooo,, I decided since I needed to move my CG fowArd a bit,, I'd put on the 15gram heavier aernought turbo spinner,, and since I was doing that might as well try a slightly bigger prop,,, so,,, I went from a 13x6.5 aeronaught on a stock E flite spinner to a 14x6 aeronaught with a aeronaught spinner,, with me?? My amp draw , checked several times with the 13x6.5 static was between 55-56 amps,, so then after I changed to aeronaught spinner and proped up to a 14x6,, I checked again,, now I get 45 amps!!!
Weird huh??? I check it 3x just to be sure yup 45- 46 amps,, should've been a little higher or about the same I would think,,, hmmmm. Soooo,,,, just for giggles I decide to try the E Flite 14x8 prop which has slightly narrower shoulders than the aeronaught props,, now I get about 55-56 amps,,, WOW!!!! About the same as I WAS getting previously using the 13x6.5 and E Flite spinner,, very weird!!! Maybe e flite spinner was rubbing against nose slightly??
Or,,, maybe E flite spinner not dynamically balanced as well??? The aeronaught DOES have a very different design than the E Flite spinner,, the e flite spinner doesnt have a backplate as where the aeronaught does. I'm at a loss to explain
But I'm happy about it. :-)
From my experience, (Iím not a real expert on electrics) Ground AMP checks are only a guide. My guess is the newer prop is possibly showing signs of cavitation and producing less load on the system. In flight power draw measurements are much more realistic. I do a lot of racing aircraft and prop cavitation can be very misleading especially when figuring out prop loads In flight information is more accurate.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 11:33 AM
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Interesting, it may be cavitation as Peter suggests but kind unlikely on that size and speed of the prop. If you compare the 2 spinners, how far are the pins from the shaft? Is the spacing smaller on the Aeronaught spinner? That would account for a total smaller propeller diameter. Easy test would be to put that 13x6.6 on that same spinner and see the amps then. Aeronaught also produces some spinners that put the prop off the center line effecting the pitch of the prop. They have been at this folding prop game for a long time and know what they are doing, plus their props are designed for their spinners as a unit, results vary when mounted on other manufacturer spinners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman74 View Post
So I had a very strange thing happen when I changed props today,, maybe someone can explain it. Sooo,, I decided since I needed to move my CG fowArd a bit,, I'd put on the 15gram heavier aernought turbo spinner,, and since I was doing that might as well try a slightly bigger prop,,, so,,, I went from a 13x6.5 aeronaught on a stock E flite spinner to a 14x6 aeronaught with a aeronaught spinner,, with me?? My amp draw , checked several times with the 13x6.5 static was between 55-56 amps,, so then after I changed to aeronaught spinner and proped up to a 14x6,, I checked again,, now I get 45 amps!!!
Weird huh??? I check it 3x just to be sure yup 45- 46 amps,, should've been a little higher or about the same I would think,,, hmmmm. Soooo,,,, just for giggles I decide to try the E Flite 14x8 prop which has slightly narrower shoulders than the aeronaught props,, now I get about 55-56 amps,,, WOW!!!! About the same as I WAS getting previously using the 13x6.5 and E Flite spinner,, very weird!!! Maybe e flite spinner was rubbing against nose slightly??
Or,,, maybe E flite spinner not dynamically balanced as well??? The aeronaught DOES have a very different design than the E Flite spinner,, the e flite spinner doesnt have a backplate as where the aeronaught does. I'm at a loss to explain
But I'm happy about it. :-)
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ddruck View Post
Interesting, it may be cavitation as Peter suggests but kind unlikely on that size and speed of the prop. If you compare the 2 spinners, how far are the pins from the shaft? Is the spacing smaller on the Aeronaught spinner? That would account for a total smaller propeller diameter. Easy test would be to put that 13x6.6 on that same spinner and see the amps then. Aeronaught also produces some spinners that put the prop off the center line effecting the pitch of the prop. They have been at this folding prop game for a long time and know what they are doing, plus their props are designed for their spinners as a unit, results vary when mounted on other manufacturer spinners.
Oh ya!!!!! Didn't even think of THAT!!! Yes!!! The two yokes ARE different in their spaceing..
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