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Old Sep 06, 2012, 08:54 PM
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Spinning/turning fixed pitch heli & cp heli

I have been flying fixed pitch heli for a few months now thinking of upgrading to cp. I have one question about heli moving around out of position when turning the headings of my fixed pitch will this happen with the cp heli?

What happens is that every time I turn rudder from nose in to tail in or vice versa the heli move away out of its hovering position makes me want to constantly control it to stay in position otherwise it will use a lot of space to level it out doesn't matter I turn left or right. Does this happen to cp heli as well? As I saw some YouTube videos doesn't seem to happen with cp heli may be doesn't happen under competent pilot?
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by vernonsmith View Post
I have been flying fixed pitch heli for a few months now thinking of upgrading to cp. I have one question about heli moving around out of position when turning the headings of my fixed pitch will this happen with the cp heli?

What happens is that every time I turn rudder from nose in to tail in or vice versa the heli move away out of its hovering position makes me want to constantly control it to stay in position otherwise it will use a lot of space to level it out doesn't matter I turn left or right. Does this happen to cp heli as well? As I saw some YouTube videos doesn't seem to happen with cp heli may be doesn't happen under competent pilot?
Your fixed pitch probably uses a gyro with rate mode. Most people use a head holding gyro for their cp's. The rate mode flies differently, seems to turn in the direction the heli is falling. Most gyros have both a rate mode and a headholding mode.

If you set your cp heli up perfectly you can get a really stable hover in, which as long as it's balanced from center, and tracking and everything's level, you can do tail to nose in no problem. Even a bunch of pyros without it losing position too bad. Now holding it in a level hover in the first place is different.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 09:53 PM
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Will the Trex 450 plus likely do the same?
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 10:32 PM
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Will the Trex 450 plus likely do the same?
Any helicopter with a head holding gyro will handle the same. Just learn how to set it up correctly, with decent electronics and you'll be able to get good stability out of a 450 size. The bigger the better, but a 450 is a good size to learn on.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vernonsmith View Post
I have been flying fixed pitch heli for a few months now thinking of upgrading to cp. I have one question about heli moving around out of position when turning the headings of my fixed pitch will this happen with the cp heli?
No. The tendency of the fixed pitch to bank when you're just using the rudder is from it not reacting fast enough to compensate for the drift.

When you're turning right, the tail rotor pushes harder, causing the entire heli to move sideways. The flybar forces the heli to level out but reacts so slowly that the heli eventually tilts in the wrong angle and that mimics a banked turn.

When you're turning left, the tail shuts off and the heli does a near perfect left turn without a banking effect using the helis natural tendency to turn the opposite direction of the main rotor. So there are no forces pushing the heli sideways. Of course, you still have to contend with the fact that the main rotor is naturally tilted right, which means the tail rotor is counteracting the torque from the wrong angle as you turn.

On the other hand, without the flybar, you'll need to do this yourself. Lots of little adjustments as you turn, you can't just slam the rudder and expect it to turn by itself anymore. The first time you fly a CP i guarantee you'll be spending several batteries learning how to REALLY hover When flying FP, the one doing the hovering is the flybar
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 10:59 PM
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On the other hand, without the flybar, you'll need to do this yourself. The first time you fly a CP i guarantee you'll be spending several batteries learning how to REALLY hover When flying FP, the one doing the hovering the flybar, not you
I have a helimax novus fp micro that has flybar paddles, as opposed to weights, and it's still a handful to hover. Way harder than my 450, but then again it doesn't fly as well as my 450, and it's kind of a POS.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 11:25 PM
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I have a helimax novus fp micro that has flybar paddles, as opposed to weights, and it's still a handful to hover. Way harder than my 450, but then again it doesn't fly as well as my 450, and it's kind of a POS.
Yeah, with practice, i actually hover better now with the CP than the FP because i'm anticipating the movements and correcting them myself. The FP on the other hand, can hover by itself and i'm basically just 'nudging' it back into position.

Going from CP back to FP (My 2nd v911 arrived yesterday to replace the one that was totalled three weeks ago), i actually find myself 'fighting' the flybar.

If i turn the my micro CP too fast while hovering, it'll end up zooming off into the distance. That certainly doesn't happen in the simulator I'm still trying to figure out what to do to compensate for it. There's no flybar to compensate for me.

Does the fact that the 450 has more weight help with keeping it stable when using the rudder?
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 11:57 PM
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Thanks for the advice so far. I thought '3-axis' gyro is supposed to compensate any movement detected? By the way the heli I have is a flybarless Walkera 4F180 fixed pitch. This heli hover so nicely except one weakness that is when pushing rudder left or right the whole heli will move around you have to quickly adjust to counter the movement. Otherwise it will take up lots of space to level out.

I am considering getting the belt driven, flybarred Align Trex 450 Plus RFT is it recommended for intermediate pilot like me? I can fly the 4F180 without any problem.
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 09:41 AM
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hi hear that walkera 3g doesnt have piro compensaton .i have the v200 and
can turn it slowly in a hover ,whith just tail roter ,whithout it popping out of
hover,did tweak the 3g settings to give a lil stonger hover.doesnt eliminate
the need to use right stick when adding a large amount of rudder
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 02:04 PM
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Does the fact that the 450 has more weight help with keeping it stable when using the rudder?
The size of the blades on a 450 make it more stable than a micro, just a bigger rotor disc of lift, air dynamics. I don't know why your micro would zoom off when you applied rudder. Is your micro balanced front to back and trimmed out? I know with my fp micro, it always wants to dip forwards, so in a lot of moves I have to give it a little backwards elevator and that seems to keep everything stable. Mine's a piece of junk so I don't know if it's balanced anymore... the blade grips are shot, I've shortened the tail due to a crash, blade tracking is impossible, it's on it's last leg. I just fly it to mess around.
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vernonsmith View Post
Thanks for the advice so far. I thought '3-axis' gyro is supposed to compensate any movement detected? By the way the heli I have is a flybarless Walkera 4F180 fixed pitch. This heli hover so nicely except one weakness that is when pushing rudder left or right the whole heli will move around you have to quickly adjust to counter the movement. Otherwise it will take up lots of space to level out.

I am considering getting the belt driven, flybarred Align Trex 450 Plus RFT is it recommended for intermediate pilot like me? I can fly the 4F180 without any problem.
I don't know much specifically about the 450 plus RTF, it looks alright, and it looks like it comes with a decent radio (quick look, seems an align marked futaba t6 radio). That heli does have plastic parts, which aren't the best, but since it's align it's probably not the worst either. I'm sure it's a pretty good heli. I'd search around the forums for other info on this particular heli, people who have owned it may have a better opinion and insight into it. At your price point, another heli you might want to look at is a blade 450 (plastic parts too), you can get one with a Spektrum DX6i transmitter, which is a great transmitter (due to it's programming abilities). Or maybe even think about, or look into, building a clone heli. My exi clone has all metal head & tail parts and the kit itself only cost $70. But then again you have to buy all the electronics too, but you can also choose the particular electronics you use.

It's a big step to go to a 450 but it's not impossible, as it's what I did. If you're not already flying a simulator, I suggest you do so. Other than that, take it slow learning the 450, learn safety measures like throttle hold for sure, and learn how to set everything up properly, get some training gear. Also, always be more cautious because a 450 has a lot more power than what you're used to right now. Gather as much info as you can on cp helis, ask any questions you have here on rcgroups, take it slow, hover in wide open spaces, keep it away from you, and you should be fine. All this is just my opinion do more research.

BTW I stress the simulator part heavily, it's important.
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hajile View Post
Yeah, with practice, i actually hover better now with the CP than the FP because i'm anticipating the movements and correcting them myself. The FP on the other hand, can hover by itself and i'm basically just 'nudging' it back into position.

Going from CP back to FP (My 2nd v911 arrived yesterday to replace the one that was totalled three weeks ago), i actually find myself 'fighting' the flybar.

If i turn the my micro CP too fast while hovering, it'll end up zooming off into the distance. That certainly doesn't happen in the simulator I'm still trying to figure out what to do to compensate for it. There's no flybar to compensate for me.

Does the fact that the 450 has more weight help with keeping it stable when using the rudder?
Another thing I was thinking of is that, when you hover a helicopter the rotor disc is never totally flat (parallel to the ground), usually you are leaned to the right a bit. This counteracts with the rotors spinning clockwise and pulling to the left. So to be in a slightly leaning hover and rudder left or right, the second you add rudder now the heli isn't "leaning" in the right direction for stable hover. This effect isn't as noticeable on a 450, but very noticeable on a micro which is really twitchy to begin with.

The best pyros I've had, I've flattened the rotor disc and held rudder. This way it just spins around on it's axis, eventually slowly moving out of hover, depending on how flat my disc was at the time I started. If it was really flat, I could pyro for ever it seems in one spot.
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Another thing I was thinking of is that, when you hover a helicopter the rotor disc is never totally flat (parallel to the ground), usually you are leaned to the right a bit. This counteracts with the rotors spinning clockwise and pulling to the left. So to be in a slightly leaning hover and rudder left or right, the second you add rudder now the heli isn't "leaning" in the right direction for stable hover. This effect isn't as noticeable on a 450, but very noticeable on a micro which is really twitchy to begin with.

The best pyros I've had, I've flattened the rotor disc and held rudder. This way it just spins around on it's axis, eventually slowly moving out of hover, depending on how flat my disc was at the time I started. If it was really flat, I could pyro for ever it seems in one spot.
That's a good point. A quick nudge left before a turn may help. I think my problem is that i still don't have a full grasp of the forces involved. A heli may be facing one way, but its momentum is going in a different direction. If my estimate in direction and intensity to counter that force is off by as little as ten degrees, it doesn't get completely cancelled. And since helicopter forces on a 6ch are commulative (4ch has built in brakes), by the time i notice i got it wrong it's already accelerating away. Crap. Flattening the disk may be what i need to simplify things
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 11:02 PM
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That's a good point. A quick nudge left before a turn may help. I think my problem is that i still don't have a full grasp of the forces involved. A heli may be facing one way, but its momentum is going in a different direction. If my estimate in direction and intensity to counter that force is off by as little as ten degrees, it doesn't get completely cancelled. And since helicopter forces on a 6ch are commulative (4ch has built in brakes), by the time i notice i got it wrong it's already accelerating away. Crap. Flattening the disk may be what i need to simplify things
The more you practice, the more it will become second nature to you. I didn't think I could ever learn certain things like nose in even, but eventually it became more natural to me. It's been this way with helicopters the whole way. I'm just trying to get better little by little.

I am able to fly around without crashing, and scale flying is really the only reason I got into helicopters. Though now at this point I am also very intrigued with 3d.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 07:36 AM
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Hi, How should I know that my futaba 6j is in idle up or normal mode?
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