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Old Mar 06, 2011, 07:34 AM
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cayars's Avatar
Bridgeton, NJ
Joined Mar 2009
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Guys, I should have clarified a bit more what I was talking about with a "ban". I was specifically talking about the DX8/6200 combo being banned for use at the fields. Not the DX8 as a whole. If I didn't write that or it didn't come across I apologize.

The object is not to punish a DX8 owner, but to bring attention to the fact that there is enough documention to establish a potential problem that can cause a safety issue. Another club member has suggested that a person could certify his 6200 for use with the DX8 by having shown it doesn't cause any glitches using a foamy to fly a couple of packs through it while making sure no incidents occur. This would serve the purpose of finding the really problematic receivers right off the bat.

I honestly don't know how this is going to unfold. Maybe just bringing this combo (dx8/6200) to the attention of everyone in the clubs will be enough. As it stands now the 2 of us are aware of the issue and can take the proper steps to not fly this combo.

We do plan on running similar tests with the 6100 series receivers and see what happens. I know I've made up little labels on crack and peel paper that say "DX8 checked" on them and another that says "DX8 failed" on them and as I've been running different receivers with the DX8 I've been labeling these as I go.

So hopefully this helps to clarify the mindset on the "ban".
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 07:43 AM
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Bridgeton, NJ
Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freechip View Post
You are absolutely right, DO NOT PARK the 400$ tx but instead park the 50$ rx.

You dont band the use of a tx because X amount of user have issues with certain RX.

That's not how thing work in the world. Glad I fly outside of clubs. I have full control on my stuff and if something goes wrong nobody is going to get since I am alone.
Ideally, yes I agree with you on the ban of the receiver and not the transmitter but at the same time this receiver works with every other Spectrum & JR transmitter that we know of. Just not reliably with the DX8.

Unfortunately that is how things work in the real world at times. Have you never seen or heard when the FAA/NTSB shuts down the complete use of different aircraft lines while an investigation takes place?

I have no problem with your situation. It's different however when you have 20-30 people at a field who are doing different things and not always watching the aircraft in the sky. An out of control aircraft (especially a heli) can do a lot of damage quickly.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:10 AM
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Bridgeton, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerocal View Post
You mentioned testing.I didnt quite fully understand what you meant by "not going into another guys results".
Not as controlled evaluations as mine so I don't value his results as much as my own.
Quote:
What Im trying to understand as I read all the "issue reports" is whether anyone has confirmed that it is not a power issue.I mean beyond "it works fine with my other radio". Are you saying you are aware of logging done confirming no loss of power at the bus when these loss of control incidents are occurring? Dont get me wrong.Really Im just concerned.Honestly in some ways it could scare the hell out of a guy.
Have you confirmed it is not a power issue?
Scientifically, no.

I've only had my DX8 for a few weeks with a few days worth of flying time.

Call it a hunch, but I honestly don't think it's a power issue. I base this "guess" on the fact of using different quality ESC and also the separate battery pack. Also the fact that these same combos never caused problems with other transmitters.

At this time all I have done is try with different ESCs (quality units) like the Airboss and ICE controllers and also with fully charged battery pack with no ubec powering the radios. No logging has been done at this time. I do believe the ICE controllers can do logging but I haven't gotten that far yet. One of my buds does have an Eagle Tree Logger that I'm sure he would let me borrow. Getting some logging data to check power issues is something I'm planning on doing but have yet to do. While I don't think it's a power issue I do want to rule this out in a controller manner.

Quote:
Maybe I am just lucky or I have the right angels or something but so far so good for me.I do what I call basic testing at setup or when I change something.For me that means e-logger on all the nessesary functions.Motor current draw if electric,Voltage at the Rx bus during flight conditions,and current use by Rx/servos.Ive had more than one be way too close to the edge in actual use that get beefed up one way or another.It might be working and flying fine but marginal.

Andy probably thinks Im nuts but when I started with my DX8 I went back and did some of the same tests on stuff that Ive been using.My results are mixed.I honestly think the DX8 uses the available power differently.Is this bad? I think not. Its just different.I could go on and on but my testing showed some of my setups were marginal.More than they were when I set them up awhile ago on my DX7.Swapping back and forth I had mixed results.I almost got sucked in until I just went back to the basic.Forget about everything else and test the setup.If its marginal beef it up.If it looks ok from the data go fly it and have fun.So far so good.It has made me aware of safety again.If Im scared when I fly its all over.
You could be right about a "marginal" setup. This in itself is pretty scary. Something marginal that works fine with a JR, DX5, DX6i and DX7 that just doesn't work reliably with a DX8 is in itself cause for alarm. But that is speculation.

I'm not a nay-sayer, a spectrum basher or anything like that. I love this platform but I'm concerned right now. While HH is known for it's customer support it "feels" like we are being let down with this issue. All we ever hear/or read is that things were tested and sent back. This might be one of those odd situations where lab/bench testing isn't going to find a problem easily. I know I'd feel a lot better about the situation if I knew HH was actively trying to pinpoint the said issue by flying some of the problematic returned receiver/transmitters as apposed to just bench checking them.

Carlo
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:21 AM
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Bridgeton, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NwRcFlight View Post
There has to be something wrong other than just power when you can fly the planes on one transmitter with no issue and the exact same plane has an issue with the DX8. Could the DX8 be sending a signal that in some way the AR6200 doesn't recognize? Could low power cause a brownout and the AR6200 recovers properly from a DX7 signal (in milliseconds so it's not noticed) but it doesn't recover properly sometimes from a DX8 signal and does a 3 second reconnect? Has he had a power issue all along and the AR6200 has been recovering and auto connecting but it wasn't noticed because it happened so fast (perhaps just a weird twitch in the models flight)? Is the auto reconnect not working now on the AR6200 and the receiver has to go through a complete initialization (seconds) when the power blips? Resulting in a loss of control that sometimes ends in a crash because the failure starts at a low altitude?
If I were a betting man, I'd bet your are spot-on with the problem being something you just mentioned. I'm very new to data logging and I'm not sure how much of this info we can record with things like the ICE logging and Eagle Tree loggers.

Since the weather isn't cooperating here in Jersey for at least a few more days I'm trying to get a cheap plane setup to record as much of this info as possible and see if I can shed more light on the situation. If anyone has any suggestions for me please let me know!

Carlo
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:29 AM
jdr43
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USA, AR, Bella Vista
Joined Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cayars View Post
If I were a betting man, I'd bet your are spot-on with the problem being something you just mentioned. I'm very new to data logging and I'm not sure how much of this info we can record with things like the ICE logging and Eagle Tree loggers.

Since the weather isn't cooperating here in Jersey for at least a few more days I'm trying to get a cheap plane setup to record as much of this info as possible and see if I can shed more light on the situation. If anyone has any suggestions for me please let me know!

Carlo
Carlo, thank you for your input. You are right on the money, there is a problem with the DX8 period !!! And it is a big safety issue.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:48 AM
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Bridgeton, NJ
Joined Mar 2009
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I don't know if this has anything to do with it but since someone just shared this with me I thought I would pass it on here.

From here: DX8 to AR6100 issue resolved - need to bind correctly!
http://174.133.212.163/showthread.php?t=267842

This person discovered something that is slightly different then the manual suggests. The DX8 manual states the following procedure:
Binding
You must bind the receiver to the transmitter before the receiver will operate.
Binding teaches the receiver the specific code of the transmitter, so it will only
connect to that transmitter.
1. To bind an AR8000 to a DSM2 transmitter, insert the bind plug in the BATT/
BIND port on the receiver.
Note: To bind an aircraft with an electronic speed controller that powers
the receiver through the throttle channel (ESC/BEC), insert the bind plug
into the BATT/BIND port in the receiver and the throttle lead into the throttle
(THRO) port. Proceed to Step #2.
2. Power the receiver. The LED on the receiver will be flashing, indicating the
receiver is ready to be bound to the transmitter.
3. Move the sticks and switches on the transmitter to the desired failsafe
positions (low throttle and neutral control positions).
4. Press and hold the trainer button while powering on transmitter.
5. The system will connect within a few seconds. Once connected, the LED on the
receiver will go solid indicating connection.
6. Remove the bind plug from the BATT/BND port on the receiver. Power off the
transmitter and store the bind plug in a convenient place.

From this thread this person does step 4/5 differently. Instead of letting go of the button once the bind light is established the button is held until the DX8 resets. I've never done this but I'm going to rebind all my planes in this fashion and see if this makes any difference with the 6200s I have. Worth a shot I guess.

Carlo
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:59 AM
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Champlin, MN
Joined Feb 2010
214 Posts
Potential DX8 Issue

Reading through the debate on the potential issue with DX8/AR6200 - has anyone taken specific note on if there were other transmitters/potential interference? What about heat? I've only flown my dx8/ar6200 twice (it's still too dang cold here), but haven't had any issue. I know they're not trying to punish DX8 owners by mentioning a ban, and I'm sure mentioning one is meant to get Spektrum to take note of the issue.

I hate the whole mindset people seem to have now days where one mistake messes something up for everyone or an issue gets blown way out of proportion. Last time I checked I still lived in America... Spektrum does need to own up to a potential issue - no argument there, but Toyota has lost millions and there hasn't been 1 shred of scientific proof there's anything wrong with their throttles. HH may be one of the biggest guns out there in the RC industry, but I doubt they could recover from something like Toyota has gone through. The problem is if they admit to potential issues everyone gets all "sue happy". I would sure hope they are aware of the issue even if they're not admitting it.

If you've got an issue with yours let's try to rule out variables and be scientifically minded here - rule out every other possibility. Send them your equipment for inspection, bombard them with scientific data (a couple guys mentioned a great idea of getting flight logger systems). Bottom line - let's try to be part of the solution not the problem.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 09:04 AM
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Joined Nov 2009
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If you search the DX8 Threads there is an unusually high number of DX8 6100/6200 combos that all exhibit themselves in the same manner ( worked with DX 6/7). I am not convinced there is a flaw in the DX8, but believe there is something unique in the DX8 AR6100/6200 combos. I had a 6100 in a REX450 that was flying level at 30Yrds and did a hard left dive into the ground. It is also interesting that in almost every case the failure results in a left Ail and down Elev movement. My 6X00 rcrvs are now retired.Only running 7000 and 8000 series.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 09:06 AM
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GehrBox's Avatar
Charleston, SC
Joined Nov 2004
44 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cayars View Post
Needless to say I'm a bit bothered by this. I have not seen any official response from HH to even acknowledge this is in fact a problem, let alone any type of time line to get this fixed.

As the President of our local AMA club and member of several other clubs, I'm presenting my finding to the clubs and making a motion to ban the use of the DX8 until this problem has been sorted out and fixed by HH. SAFETY must come first and the DX8/6200 combo is a bad accident waiting to happen.
You were very thorough in your efforts to isolate the issue with your system. I would like to hear Andy Kunz take on this issue. He is usually pretty responsive and helpful working through problems like this one.

I've flown my DX8 only with AR8000, AR500 and AR600's and so far have not converted over any of my aircraft equipped with AR6200's. No problems exhibited by the receivers I have used.

Hope the "hold bind button till reboot" solves the issue. Please keep us informed
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cayars View Post
Not as controlled evaluations as mine so I don't value his results as much as my own.

Scientifically, no.

I've only had my DX8 for a few weeks with a few days worth of flying time.

Call it a hunch, but I honestly don't think it's a power issue. I base this "guess" on the fact of using different quality ESC and also the separate battery pack. Also the fact that these same combos never caused problems with other transmitters.

At this time all I have done is try with different ESCs (quality units) like the Airboss and ICE controllers and also with fully charged battery pack with no ubec powering the radios. No logging has been done at this time. I do believe the ICE controllers can do logging but I haven't gotten that far yet. One of my buds does have an Eagle Tree Logger that I'm sure he would let me borrow. Getting some logging data to check power issues is something I'm planning on doing but have yet to do. While I don't think it's a power issue I do want to rule this out in a controller manner.



You could be right about a "marginal" setup. This in itself is pretty scary. Something marginal that works fine with a JR, DX5, DX6i and DX7 that just doesn't work reliably with a DX8 is in itself cause for alarm. But that is speculation.

I'm not a nay-sayer, a spectrum basher or anything like that. I love this platform but I'm concerned right now. While HH is known for it's customer support it "feels" like we are being let down with this issue. All we ever hear/or read is that things were tested and sent back. This might be one of those odd situations where lab/bench testing isn't going to find a problem easily. I know I'd feel a lot better about the situation if I knew HH was actively trying to pinpoint the said issue by flying some of the problematic returned receiver/transmitters as apposed to just bench checking them.

Carlo
FWIW, I've had my DX8 since early September, and put about 80 flights
on a 6200 equipped 500 size heli before winter.

Never had any issues.
Nor, with close to 100 flights on a 6100 equipped 250 heli indoors.
No problems either with a 6100 equipped electric 47" Yak flown beyond
what most would consider "park-flyer range".

If there is an intrinsic problem with compatibility between the DX8 and the 6200 or 6100 rx's, I think I should have experienced it, and I just haven't.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Ontario, Canada
Joined Apr 2010
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I posted this before...

I only fly with AR6100 (v1.6) and AR6110e's. Never had an issue with any of them or my DX8.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 11:46 AM
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Nebraska USA
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Just for the record, I'd have to agree with the previous two posters - over 100 flights with the DX8 and mostly 6100/6110-series receivers in a variety of planes and not a single problem. Most of my planes are fast, performance models and any problem would have been very noticeable.

From this, I would suspect individual set-ups before I would an inherent DX8 problem.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 11:53 AM
EDF Junkie
Pacific Northwest
Joined Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cayars View Post
Guys, I should have clarified a bit more what I was talking about with a "ban". I was specifically talking about the DX8/6200 combo being banned for use at the fields. Not the DX8 as a whole. If I didn't write that or it didn't come across I apologize.

The object is not to punish a DX8 owner, but to bring attention to the fact that there is enough documention to establish a potential problem that can cause a safety issue. Another club member has suggested that a person could certify his 6200 for use with the DX8 by having shown it doesn't cause any glitches using a foamy to fly a couple of packs through it while making sure no incidents occur. This would serve the purpose of finding the really problematic receivers right off the bat.

I honestly don't know how this is going to unfold. Maybe just bringing this combo (dx8/6200) to the attention of everyone in the clubs will be enough. As it stands now the 2 of us are aware of the issue and can take the proper steps to not fly this combo.

We do plan on running similar tests with the 6100 series receivers and see what happens. I know I've made up little labels on crack and peel paper that say "DX8 checked" on them and another that says "DX8 failed" on them and as I've been running different receivers with the DX8 I've been labeling these as I go.

So hopefully this helps to clarify the mindset on the "ban".
I took your post to mean the combo DX8/AR6200. I also noted that you were going to make a recommendation/motion to your club membership. Nothing would happen unless the motion was accepted and the membership voted for approval. As president you weren't banning anything yourself, but your club membership might vote to do so.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Deutschland, Hessen, LA
Joined Jan 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NwRcFlight View Post
I took your post to mean the combo DX8/AR6200. I also noted that you were going to make a recommendation/motion to your club membership. Nothing would happen unless the motion was accepted and the membership voted for approval. As president you weren't banning anything yourself, but your club membership might vote to do so.
May be should this micropolis Napoleon ban first itself.

Why used he not a TM1000 telemetry TX and looks what's going on?
I fly a Polaris* with the AR6110 now 10 hours with the DX8 and a Jepe Mirage with AR6200 has 1:30 on the clock. Then a Rafale with AR6255 1h.
My two Shockys has 5 and 6 hours on the clock with the AR6100 and DX8.

*Without the TM1000 I never discover that the 3A SBEC in the Polaris had some power drops to 2.7V.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 12:15 PM
EDF Junkie
Pacific Northwest
Joined Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kambalunga View Post
May be should this micropolis Napoleon ban first itself.

Why used he not a TM1000 telemetry TX and looks what's going on?
I fly a Polaris* with the AR6110 now 10 hours with the DX8 and a Jepe Mirage with AR6200 has 1:30 on the clock. Then a Rafale with AR6255 1h.
My two Shockys has 5 and 6 hours on the clock with the AR6100 and DX8.

*Without the TM1000 I never discover that the 3A SBEC in the Polaris had some power drops to 2.7V.
Were you flying it when the drops occurred? Or did you discover it on the bench?
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