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Old Feb 28, 2012, 01:38 PM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
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Dayton, OH
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Originally Posted by FrogChief View Post
We're not a 'Christian nation', we're a secular nation of laws. The sooner fools like Santorum disappear and quit trying to push religion into politics, we'll all be better off.

Somehow, 40-50 years ago, religion was regarded as a matter of personal faith, and politicians generally frowned upon wearing one's faith on their sleeve. These days it's all about pandering to the frightened, churchy masses.

I'll take JFK's take on things; ie. there's FAR more important things to be worried about:
I agree but I don't think Santorum's religion is an issue. People are trying to make an issue where there is none. It's not like he can mandate his religion for everyone if he becomes the president.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492 View Post
I agree but I don't think Santorum's religion is an issue. People are trying to make an issue where there is none. It's not like he can mandate his religion for everyone if he becomes the president.
Santorum MAKES an issue out of it; by constantly opening his mouth and saying stupid things. Kennedy's speech is intelligent, honest and appropriate. He backpedaled in that interview because his 'vomit' comment had no plausible defense.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:08 PM
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Pffft
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constantly opening his mouth and saying stupid things
"under my adminstration engergy prices will increase "
I cant see any of Santorms blunders being worse than that.
Or the one about 5 dollar gas was a good thing ,just didnt want it to go up that fast

Dont really matter who replaces the current bad pick ,long as he is replaced .
Only thing worse than any of the hopefuls is the current occupant for another 4 years.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by debogus View Post
Pffft "under my adminstration engergy prices will increase "
I cant see any of Santorms blunders being worse than that.
Or the one about 5 dollar gas was a good thing ,just didnt want it to go up that fast

Dont really matter who replaces the current bad pick ,long as he is replaced .
Only thing worse than any of the hopefuls is the current occupant for another 4 years.
We're not talking about what you think of President Obama. We're talking about Santorum, or I was. He's so fundamentally flawed he doesn't deserve any further attention.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 02:21 PM
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Acer View Post
"One of the Jefferson" letters does not the Constitution make.
It doesn't have to. It's intent was merely to describe the true meaning of the Establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. And Jefferson's words hit the nail exactly on the head, as his interpretation of the Establishment clause has been accepted by the SCOTUS over, and over, and over, again to be the correct interpretation.

That Santorum doesn't believe the Establishment clause denotes a separation between Church and State only serves to show his ignorance, at least of the plethora of rulings by the SCOTUS relating to the Establishment clause.

I'll put it to you this way, if we didn't have the Establishment clause, the government could mandate religion for all. Do you want to be forced to attend Obama's church and listen to Rev. Wright?
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Acer View Post
Show me the actual wording "Separation of Church and State" and maybe we'll agree. It does not appear in the Constitution.
Of course not. But Santorum isn't arguing that point either. He is saying that he thinks that religion should have involvement in government. He thinks that religions should get laws passed reflecting those religious values.

Do you think that Muslims should be able to influence our government to get their religious values inserted into government law? I can tell you that I sure don't.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 03:32 PM
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Of course not. But Santorum isn't arguing that point either. He is saying that he thinks that religion should have involvement in government. He thinks that religions should get laws passed reflecting those religious values.

Do you think that Muslims should be able to influence our government to get their religious values inserted into government law? I can tell you that I sure don't.
Exactly. The funny thing is that folks think it would be nice to pass 'Christian' laws. However, what happens when Christianity is no longer the predominant religion in the United States? Then precedent would be established and Muslim, Jewish, Mormon or any other religion would be free to establish law if the establishment clause is flouted.


However this is a strawman, as the establishment clause will never be disregarded. Doing so would result in armed conflict. ( I would hope )
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 03:58 PM
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Santorum is not saying that. He is stating that the religious should have an equal voice in the national debate. Religious people should not be silenced and have an equal right to voice opinion on any law or policy the government has before it. Not just secularists.

This belief is 100% right and is exactly how the Constitution reads. Many today read the first part of the 1st Amendment, but forget to continue to the "or prohibiting the free exercise there of" part.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:09 PM
Холодная война все еще здесь.
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Originally Posted by Acer View Post
Santorum is not saying that. He is stating that the religious should have an equal voice in the national debate. Religious people should not be silenced and have an equal right to voice opinion on any law or policy the government has before it. Not just secularists.

This belief is 100% right and is exactly how the Constitution reads. Many today read the first part of the 1st Amendment, but forget to continue to the "or prohibiting the free exercise there of" part.
, I am beginning to like you. Level headed.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:21 PM
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Thomerson View Post
As I understand it, the phrase "separation of church and state' is from one of Jefferson's letters. I don't particularly want to live in a Roman Catholic theocracy, or any other kind of theocracy our local Taliban might propose.
Theocracies based on religions are bound by the rules of their own reference documents. Theocracies based on '
progressive' ideas are bound by nothing except the endless desire for the growth of the State.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:38 PM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
RumRunner_1492's Avatar
Dayton, OH
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Originally Posted by FrogChief View Post
Santorum MAKES an issue out of it; by constantly opening his mouth and saying stupid things. Kennedy's speech is intelligent, honest and appropriate. He backpedaled in that interview because his 'vomit' comment had no plausible defense.
I agree with that. Santorum digs his own grave.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by FrogChief View Post
We're not talking about what you think of President Obama. We're talking about Santorum, or I was. He's so fundamentally flawed he doesn't deserve any further attention.
Fundamentally flawed is the current leader

I am a Wiccan and Santorums religious beliefs dont bother me in the least.
I wouldnt be voting for him anyway just against obama and his supporters.
The fact of how this religion part cause so much grief would be icing
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Acer View Post
Santorum is not saying that. He is stating that the religious should have an equal voice in the national debate. Religious people should not be silenced and have an equal right to voice opinion on any law or policy the government has before it. Not just secularists.
If he said what you just said, he would have no problems. Because of course religious people are allowed to take part in government at all levels. But what Santorum fails to understand is that also carries responsibility as a legislator. That responsibility means he must weigh his desire for religious morality in the law with that of the rights of individuals. As an elected official, he must ensure that religion should not trump civil rights.

Where Santorum gets it wrong is when he claims that he's for the separation of church and state, but that's it's only one way. He thinks that the state can't tell the church what to do, but that the church can tell the state what to do.

Quote:
“You hear so much about separation of church and state. I’m for separation of church and state. The state has no business telling what the church to do,” Santorum said at a Chamber of Commerce meeting, apparently referring to the requirement from the Obama administration that all institutions that provide health insurance, including Catholic hospitals, cover birth control and emergency contraception.

“But the separation of church and state that our founders believed in, which is what I just described, has now been turned on its head. And now it’s the church, people of faith who have no right to come to the public square and express their points of view, or practice their faith outside of their church,” Santorum said.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...d-on-its-head/

Quote:
This belief is 100% right and is exactly how the Constitution reads. Many today read the first part of the 1st Amendment, but forget to continue to the "or prohibiting the free exercise there of" part.
I think Santorum remembers that part without also understanding or remembering the first part.
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