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Old Nov 29, 2012, 04:10 PM
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I think this sets an interesting precedent. Maybe Israel should sponsor UN membership for Kurdistan and Kasmir?

Chechnya, anyone?
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by S_YORAM1@BEZEQIN View Post
Dusty, can you tell me why:
- When the Israeli government froze any construction work in the West Bank, responding to a pre condition by Abbas for negotiation, the Palestinians did not show up?
- when Nethanyahu openly and publicly accepted the concept of Two States for Two Peoples and called the Palestinians for negotiations, nobody showed up.
- When Barak offered Arafat all what he wanted, including East Jerusalem, but not the right of return, Arafat refused.

Add these to the Hamas behavior, and you will understand that the feeling in Israel is that the Palestinians will not settle for less than the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. Add to this the fact that they have refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish State, and it will clarify their intentions even more.
Israel has never frozen all construction work, in all the time Abbas has been the Palestinian president. Netanyahu knows full well that freezing all construction work in the settlements has been a long standing pre-condition for negotiations. By inviting the Palestinians for talks without freezing construction, then moaning when they don't show up, amounts to no more than political point scoring.

But if you insist that Israel did actually freeze all construction work, and not just say they did, feel free to provide the dates you would claim it was stopped between.

The right of return of the Palestinian refugees does not belong to any Palestinian leader to give away; it is for each individual refugee to decide for themselves whether they want to return or not. Same goes for recognising Israel as a Jewish state, since that implies the Palestinians have given up their right to return if Israel says their status as a Jewish state would be under threat.

Their intentions are very clear. They want a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, and for Israel to accept the right of return for all refugees. Even though this would amount to no more than Israel complying with UN resolutions passed against it and international law, equal rights for all people regardless of race or religion, it would also probably mean the end of Israel as Jewish state, should all the refugees decide to return.

This is why I think if Israel wants to maintain a Jewish majority and continue to have racist immigration laws, the sooner they begin to face up to their responsibility to the refugees, the better. Some young refugees might be persuaded to go and start a new life elsewhere for relatively small amounts of money, and larger families might be persuaded to give up their right to return in exchange for a home in an existing West Bank settlement, as Israel would have to abandon them in any case.

If Israel is forced to comply with the UN resolutions passed against it and international law, what proportion of Israelis do reckon would emigrate?

Dusty
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by S_YORAM1@BEZEQIN View Post
By the same token, Israel has the right to defend itself by armed means, and as a full member state to call on other UN members to assist it, in case of attacks like the one from Gaza, which Israel does not occupy.
You don't seriously think Israel would seek legal recourse, do you? That would be like a car thief taking the owner of the car to court because he damaged it in the course of trying to stop the thief from stealing it.

Gaza is still legally and effectively occupied by Israel. To say Israel's military isn't in control of the lives of the population of Gaza, is like saying someone doesn't control the lives of the fish in his fish tank unless he is in there swimming with them. But that's besides the point.

The Palestinian state exist in the West Bank and Gaza. Just as the French who lived in parts of France which Germany didn't occupy during WW2 still had a right to resist the occupation in the parts of France Germany did occupy, the Palestinians would have that same right. As I'm sure you will know full well, even though you won't want to admit it, many of the rockets fired out of Gaza by groups such as Islamic Jihad, are in response to Israel's aggressive actions in the occupied West Bank. The Palestinians living in Gaza have just as much right to resist the occupation as the Palestinians living in the West Bank have.

Dusty
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:20 PM
Холодная война все еще здесь.
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
I haven't.
They do not seem to want to live in peace, they have issues...
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RCWorks View Post
They do not seem to want to live in peace, they have issues...
Indeed. They do not seem to want to live in peace while their land is being stolen, and they have issues with the people who are stealing their land.

Dusty
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Israel has never frozen all construction work, in all the time Abbas has been the Palestinian president. Netanyahu knows full well that freezing all construction work in the settlements has been a long standing pre-condition for negotiations. By inviting the Palestinians for talks without freezing construction, then moaning when they don't show up, amounts to no more than political point scoring.

But if you insist that Israel did actually freeze all construction work, and not just say they did, feel free to provide the dates you would claim it was stopped between.

The right of return of the Palestinian refugees does not belong to any Palestinian leader to give away; it is for each individual refugee to decide for themselves whether they want to return or not. Same goes for recognising Israel as a Jewish state, since that implies the Palestinians have given up their right to return if Israel says their status as a Jewish state would be under threat.

Their intentions are very clear. They want a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, and for Israel to accept the right of return for all refugees. Even though this would amount to no more than Israel complying with UN resolutions passed against it and international law, equal rights for all people regardless of race or religion, it would also probably mean the end of Israel as Jewish state, should all the refugees decide to return.

This is why I think if Israel wants to maintain a Jewish majority and continue to have racist immigration laws, the sooner they begin to face up to their responsibility to the refugees, the better. Some young refugees might be persuaded to go and start a new life elsewhere for relatively small amounts of money, and larger families might be persuaded to give up their right to return in exchange for a home in an existing West Bank settlement, as Israel would have to abandon them in any case.

If Israel is forced to comply with the UN resolutions passed against it and international law, what proportion of Israelis do reckon would emigrate?

Dusty
Any who wished to remain above room temperature.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Any who wished to remain above room temperature.
Just because most Palestinians were forced from their land by Jews in 1948, and are continuing to be forced from their land to this day, does not mean that Palestinians intend to do the same in return.

These days, mass population transfer policies are consigned to the realms of the extremists such as Avigdor Lieberman and Islamic Jihad.

Dusty
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:56 PM
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Loud cheers as PA Pres. Abbas addresses the UN (3 min 55 sec)
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:59 PM
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UN recognises Palestine as non-member state (4 min 48 sec)
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Just because most Palestinians were forced from their land by Jews in 1948, and are continuing to be forced from their land to this day, does not mean that Palestinians intend to do the same in return.

These days, mass population transfer policies are consigned to the realms of the extremists such as Avigdor Lieberman and Islamic Jihad.

Dusty
Sure. Take a look at the Jewish population of other fundamentalist Islamic nations.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 08:53 PM
Холодная война все еще здесь.
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Indeed. They do not seem to want to live in peace while their land is being stolen, and they have issues with the people who are stealing their land.

Dusty
The wanted nothing to do with that area until a jew put his foot on it.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
You don't seriously think Israel would seek legal recourse, do you? That would be like a car thief taking the owner of the car to court because he damaged it in the course of trying to stop the thief from stealing it.



Dusty

Your comparison of Israel to a "car thief" is ignorant.

(Just so that we're clear, I don't mean it as an insult; I use 'ignorant' as in 'without proper understanding'.)
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:43 PM
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Indeed. They do not seem to want to live in peace while their land is being stolen, and they have issues with the people who are stealing their land.

Dusty
Jews have a few issues too, including land and a country that was stolen from them, followed by two centuries of nations across Europe who repeated stole everything they had, who never welcomed them, and who massacred them.

Whatever 'enlightenment' you may believe the world has achieved, and however you fantasize that Jews are now loved and embraced on this planet to the degree that they don't need a country of their own (where it once was), such conditions are not guaranteed.

If you have a solution to give back to the Jews everything that was taken from them over the last two millennium, and if you have a way to restore the millions of souls that were "wiped from the face of the earth", I'd like to hear it, and then, maybe then, you might be able to convince me that Jews don't belong in Israel.

The land was stolen from Jews by Europeans, Jews were treated as rats by Europeans for 2,000 years, and millions of Jews were murdered by Europeans.

It's no wonder Jews finally decided to go home.

The Palestinians deserve their due, and their own state; in all fairness, they lived their too
, but your non-stop whining about "stealing land" is simply anti-Israel propaganda.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Just because most Palestinians were forced from their land by Jews in 1948, and are continuing to be forced from their land to this day, does not mean that Palestinians intend to do the same in return.


Dusty
"... in return"?

I seem to recall the desire to push the Jews into the sea.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:19 PM
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I just had an idea! Let "Palestinian refugees" have a right to return. That is, all of those still alive who were living in what is now Israel in 1948. All of them would be eligible, but not their children born in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, etc. They should be citizens of those countries.

Shouldn't be more than a few thousand survivors left by now that would even want to.
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