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Old Jan 15, 2016, 04:02 PM
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Phil Kraft Bar Fli Plan

Hi Fellows:

I am trying to locate Phil Kraft's (60 engine size) Bar Fli pattern plan which was in the M.A.N August 1968.
I have gone through most of the previous build and interest threads with negative results.
E-Bay did have a plan about a year ago but that was sold.
I have contacted RCM&E however did not receive a reply.
J Pond classic plan service telephone number is no longer in service.

I am probably missing other possible resources or options.

Hope you can assist.

Best regards
Randy
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 04:10 PM
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Plan is available at Outerzone in digital format.
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 04:12 PM
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I have the plan and the die cut wood that MAN sold at the time. Want to make an offer?

Paul
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 04:30 PM
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The AMA sells it. They have the John Pond collection.
BAR FLI 56
MODEL AIRPLANE NEWS 8/68, KRAFT $ 14.00 31081

It says it was a John Pond plan, did not know that.
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 09:14 PM
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Phil Kraft Bar Fli Plan

Hi Fellows:

Thank you for your assistance and quick reply.

(You got to love these forums…”when in doubt or something can’t be located…just ask”)

Good idea takEon, I did have the Outerzone digital option saved on my computer.

Paul I appreciate your offer re the plan and die cut parts. I live in Canada and mailing across the border and our Canadian Customs can be a pain sometimes. Perhaps I can leave your offer as a second option.

Thanks gzkpez for locating the plan on the AMA plan web page. I’ll give them a call Monday and see what success I have.

At one point I believe the Pond family carried on with Johns plan service. I suppose what happened is the Pond family has sold or transferred all of Johns plans to AMA.!!!!!!

Interesting re the wing span of the Bar Fli. I always thought it was 58”... two inches shorter than the Kwik Fli III.
I have now read three different wing span lengths…56”…57” and 58”….
(I guess I’ll find out soon enough…lol…)

Best regards
Randy
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 09:39 PM
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Randy,

Whereabouts in Canada do you live?

I took a look at the Outerzone PK plans and they state 58" span but I haven't measured the plans myself.

Incidentally, these plans also state they were both designed and drawn by PK himself.

David
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Old Jan 15, 2016, 10:35 PM
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Hi David:

I live Oshawa Ontario, not to far from Montreal......
I'll take a closer look at the Outerzone pdf plan.

I had read on a forum that some of the wing ribs were not properly placed on the Outerzone pdf plan and some of the bulkheads were the wrong dimension!!!!!.

I don't know how accurate that info is. I suppose the best way is to download the pdf file and get it printed and get my ruler out.....

Have you printed the pdf plan ......

Best regards
Randy
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Old Jan 16, 2016, 01:10 AM
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Randy,

Practically neighbours...

I haven't printed the plans but putting them into CAD would reveal any issues that you describe including checking the specs. The rib dimensions are actually tricky to check in CAD but can be fully verified in airfoil software. Only the chords can be checked in CAD but not taper.

David
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Old Jan 16, 2016, 08:57 AM
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A recent example built by VRCS historian, Beppe Fascione.
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Old Jan 16, 2016, 09:36 AM
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Hi David:

Thanks for the info. I haven't used the pdf download file process before, I will look into it a little further.

Nice picture Lowrider1960 of the Bar Fli......thank you.
Certainly looks vintage and nice option re the covering and colour choice.

RCPaul, if you are still viewing this thread, I have sent you a PM via e-mail, I hope it makes its way to you.
If I messed something up could you advise and I will try again.

Best regards
Randy
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Old Jan 16, 2016, 04:03 PM
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Hi Fellows:

Well, I downloaded the pdf outerzone file and had the plan printed at our local Staples store today.
It came out OK, but I will take some measurements tonight and cross reference if there are any dimensional differences.

Not that it's a big deal but the wing span on this plan is 57". As previously mentioned someone had indicated the rib location was incorrect. I wonder if it is because of the one inch difference if the original MAN plan is 58".

We'll figure it out yet...lol....

Best regards
Randy
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Old Jan 16, 2016, 04:52 PM
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Randy,

Are you sure the printers did an exact 1:1 plan printout. I only ask because it is common with PDF printer drivers to want to scale down the plan just slightly to "fit in the margins".

Another possibility is that the uploaded scan is slightly undersized for similar reasons. Either way, it is a simple matter to take the plans into CAD and scale them up slightly to yield a 24" wing panel span. I could do that for you if that would help. Naturally, the entire plan would be scaled accordingly.

David
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Old Jan 16, 2016, 11:50 PM
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Hi David:

Thanks for the info re the pdf process and print out.
I spent the evening checking and re checking the dimensions. It appears the plan would be 98% correct. The rib spacing is good without any noticeable differences.

There are three fuse bulkheads (F2A, F2B and F7) that are 1/16" to narrow when measuring the bulkhead template to the top fuse view but that's an easy adjustment.

Paul was good enough to measure his original M.A.N plan from years ago and has a wing span of 56 1/4". After re measuring mine again it is 56 1/2".

All in all the plan looks very doable.
I'll start cutting my templates tomorrow and check my wood supply.
It's been years since I have done a build, I used to have a good supply of contest balsa. Wow, that's like the price of gold these days....

Thanks again fellows....
Best regards
Randy
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Old Jan 17, 2016, 10:24 AM
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Randy,

From all evidence, it sounds like all these plans are just slightly undersized. It doesn't surprise me that they are fractionally off by 1/16" or so but a span of 56" change strikes me to be a scanning/printing error.

The typical reduction made by PDF printer drivers in order to insure that all content is on the paper is of the order of 96-98%. If one takes 97.5% of 58" one ends up with roughly 56.6" so it's possible that's what happened in the printout at staples. Rarely do printers understand this unless they are engineering and architectural repro shops. Incidentall, they also do the best printing jobs.

In any case, I'll throw them into CAD and take a look at them. It's quite quick to get some metrics off them and check for dimensional consistency. In principle one should be able to compare to an on plan scale but perhaps back in the 60's such an idea was not given much thought - even by folks like PK.

David
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Old Jan 17, 2016, 02:21 PM
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Randy,

I took a look at the plans in CAD and based on all metrics I took off them, it would appear that they are slightly undersized. I went ahead and blew them up and obtained uniform and consistent dimensions on most objects. In other words, the scaling factor I choose to obtain a 58" wing span results in even dimensions for most other objects. As an example, the stab ends up at 23" even and the wing chord at 10". Also, two "hard" dimensions that can be taken off the plans given the lack of scale are the wheels. You will see two red circles representing these at the measurements noted on the plans (2.5" nose/3.0" mains) and they match quite well with the scaled up original inked circles. For the fuse length, it ends up being just shy of 46" with a 41.5" fuse (cowl cheeks to stab hinge line) and a 4.35" rudder for a total of 45.85" length.

You will see that I noted all specs (measured and computed) on the lower right and added a 6" scale ruler. For the length, I noted 46" figuring that one could either stretch the cheeks just slightly or extend the rudder to 4.5" for an even fuse length. With a 10" constant wing chord and a 58" span, the wing area (tips included) ends up being 580 sq in. All said and done, this model would fly well with a modern 46 to 55 but if one wants to be period correct, a vintage Webra or Enya 60 might be the way to go.

In any case, I hope that the cleaned up, re-dimensioned plans are of some use. Note that I also aligned the axes as best as possible on the plans which were a little skewed on the download. The fuse now has a semblance of a horizontal thrustline and centerline and the wing has vertical ribs and horizontal LE/TE. Likewise on the stab.

Plan attached in PDF.

Best, David

P.S. Former/Top Fuse Profile consistency was not checked. Any dimensional consistency issues there are a result of the original drawing. As long as the formers are consistent, whether the fuse winds up being a little wider or narrower on a design like this is not of material importance. Personally, I would be leery of building directly on these plans but a little remedial drawing would take care of proper alignment.
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