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Old Oct 07, 2012, 12:26 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,706 Posts
So I flew a contest yesterday. My biggest suggestion strategy wise is to be constantly evaluating things. Even when you are not at a contest evaluate and inspect your equipment. And evaluate your flying. What is your average of making task time? Has it changed since last month or last season?

Never stop finding ways to learn or miss out on a chance to pickup new ideas or tips. Years ago after winning a race Michael Schumacher would take a few seconds to glance at the other teams cars when they parked the top 3 cars together for photos before the drivers were ushered away to get their trophies.

Ryan
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 10:35 PM
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Gordysoar's Avatar
USA, KY, Louisville
Joined Oct 2002
692 Posts
Seeded Man on Man

Seeded MOM
is the most fun you can have with task sailplanes....and it pits the best scores against the best scores, not the best pilots against the best pilots...and it uses a curve set by the highest flight time in the group.

The first round is flown from a random draw...pilots are chosen randomly to fly against each other and the order they launch is also randomly assigned.

After that the scores are divided into flight groups, say the top five scores in the first round fly against each other, the next 5 scores next etc.

Each round shifts pilots and launch positions according to the scores.

Highest score launches first in the group.

This pits luck against advantage also. The highest score is at a disadvantage since he has to chose the lead direction on launch. The lowest score has a small advantage of a few minutes to see the other launched sailplane's air.

Its this way because we are afraid to mass launch in this country, but it still works okay.

At the end of the contest there could actually be as many winners of the contest as there were groups!

The top score of the bottom group could be considered the winner in a group of his 'skill' peers that day. The same for each group flown.

You will notice I didn't say best pilot against best pilot.

Non-MOM can have one group launching in great air and the next in terrible air. The great air group would have maxes and the second group low scores. Too much is decided by lucky timing.

The idea of a Seeded MOM Group is to have each member of like-scored pilots fly in the same air as his competitors. IF the air sucks and the top time is 1 minute in a 10 minute task, that pilots get credit for the full 10mins, the rest are then scored on the same 1 minute equals 10 curve.....however if a pilot gets the full ten minutes the rest who only got 1 minute are hosed :-).

MOM is better than non-mom but still sucks....since its possible for a good pilot to fly then entire event against far lesser skilled , lesser scored pilots.

NONE of the systems are 'fair'....they aren't supposed to be...they are supposed to be fun...and an opportunity for us to fly with other pilots and to see how our practice and study efforts have helped our thermal reading and working skills and our piloting control skills (landing points).

MOM scores the group according to a curve, the curve is set by the highest flight time.

Seeded MOM organizes flight groups and launch order by scores and uses the MOM curve scoring.

Questions?
Gordy
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 02:21 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
Fly2High's Avatar
United States, NY, Plainview
Joined Aug 2005
8,082 Posts
OK, I'll be blunt.

How can I use this scoring system to my advantage?

I am sure I am not the first one to think of this question....
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 03:59 PM
Jeff
USA, CA, Redondo Beach
Joined Aug 2003
645 Posts
That is a good explanation of Seeded MoM. I completely understand. Sounds like a cool event as newbies really do compete against newbies. And bad air is bad air for the best or the worst or whoever is in that grouping. No waiting around to see who can read the conditions best?

I can see seeded MoM being harder to run if you don't have say 5 to 10 winches. Most clubs don't. So I see where if there is ont a winch or two, the top person in each group has to launch first. Or maybe top two or three at a time (or seconds after if not simultaneous).


Ryan, so MoM is still everyone grouped together? But graded on a curve round by round? So seems little difference than the regulars... I am missing the MoM part then?
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 04:59 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,706 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly2High View Post
How can I use this scoring system to my advantage?
..
Over lots of rounds in a decent size contrst you really can't game seeded MOM to win a contest.

But definitely feel free to try.

Ryan
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:02 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdjsky01 View Post
That is a good explanation of Seeded MoM. I completely understand. Sounds like a cool event as newbies really do compete against newbies. And bad air is bad air for the best or the worst or whoever is in that grouping. No waiting around to see who can read the conditions best?

I can see seeded MoM being harder to run if you don't have say 5 to 10 winches. Most clubs don't. So I see where if there is ont a winch or two, the top person in each group has to launch first. Or maybe top two or three at a time (or seconds after if not simultaneous).


Ryan, so MoM is still everyone grouped together? But graded on a curve round by round? So seems little difference than the regulars... I am missing the MoM part then?
If you have two winches and two retrievers you can get 4 pilots up quickly enough to consider this a MOM flight group. Launch 1 - while retrieving you launch 2. While retrieving you launch 3. While you retrieve you launch 4. Now you have a 4 man flight group up.

With 3 W/R and you can get 6 up pretty fast.

A few weeks ago we did a 6 man group with 5 winches and one retriever. The retriever winch launched twice.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:44 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdjsky01 View Post
Ryan, so MoM is still everyone grouped together? But graded on a curve round by round?
Regular MOM is like seeded MOM except the composition of flight groups are decided randomly rather than by standing in the contest at the time of flight group compilation or there is a St Louis version of seeded MOM that seeds based on the performance in the prior round only rather than overall contest standing.

Ryan
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:48 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
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Joined Mar 2003
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Convenience of random MOM is that you can assign flight groups at the start of the contest. You know what flight group you will be in for every round and can arrange your timer teaming.

In Seeded you don't know what group you will be in from round to round. Can make getting timers worked out a little inconvenient. But the pilots seem to work it out OK.

I enjoy both approaches.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 10:21 PM
Jeff
USA, CA, Redondo Beach
Joined Aug 2003
645 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
Convenience of random MOM is that you can assign flight groups at the start of the contest. You know what flight group you will be in for every round and can arrange your timer teaming.

In Seeded you don't know what group you will be in from round to round. Can make getting timers worked out a little inconvenient. But the pilots seem to work it out OK.

I enjoy both approaches.
Ya know what I hate as I newbie about contests?... and it is seems to be true everywhere,,,; cliques. Pilot and timer. Ask around

"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"

F'in sucks. Worst part about Thermal contests. Lack of experienced people willing to time for newbies. And why should it not be, as I register, they ask, "Oh, newbie here? Need a timer? We have volunteers..."
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 10:32 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdjsky01 View Post
Ya know what I hate as I newbie about contests?... and it is seems to be true everywhere,,,; cliques. Pilot and timer. Ask around

"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"
"Can you time for me?"
"Ah... no.. I am timing for <insert name here>"

F'in sucks. Worst part about Thermal contests. Lack of experienced people willing to time for newbies. And why should it not be, as I register, they ask, "Oh, newbie here? Need a timer? We have volunteers..."
I can see you have not flown with the Eastern Soaring League. We always help the newbies find timers. And I, a newbie not so long ago, experienced some of what you report. But as I got to know people and understood how things work, it soon passed.

But, what you are observing is not cliques, it is experienced pilots being prepared to do what they need to do. As soon as they know their flight groups they immediately arrange for timers.

You, as a newbie, probably did not know to do that. So, by time you recognized this need, timing slots are set up. And, I am sure that when you made it known that you needed a timer you eventually got a timer so you could fly. Otherwise the contest could not proceed.

You may not know that you have to leave a certain number of flight groups between pilot and timer so that you don't have a timer working the watch when they are called to fly. So, if you ask me to time in round A and I am flying in round C, I can't time for you. Or, if I have committed to time for someone in group B, I can't time for you in group A.

And, I don't know why it surprises you that people who know each other will tend to reach out to their friends to team up for timing. As you get to know people and get used to the flow of the contest you will get into that flow too.

It is always hard to be the new guy. The good thing is that, if you keep showing up, you won't be the new guy for long.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 11:19 AM
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GliderJim's Avatar
Michigan, USA
Joined Jul 2006
577 Posts
Even if you know how contests work, if you're the new guy or the out-of-towner at a contest, it's more of a chore to find a timer. The regulars tend to have established arrangements with each other as far as timing goes, making it more difficult for the new guy. I brought a friend to my last two contests just to avoid having to look for a timer, and he ended up timing for other people when he wasn't timing for me. When all you have available to time are other pilots, it can get tough to find a timer.

Ideally, being the new guy or out-of-towner, someone from the host club would reach out and assist with making sure you have a timer each round. Obviously that doesn't always happen.

But as Aeajr said, the more you do it, and the more you get to know the other fliers, the less of a hassle it becomes.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 11:30 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,706 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
Convenience of random MOM is that you can assign flight groups at the start of the contest. You know what flight group you will be in for every round and can arrange your timer teaming.
Inconvenience is that there is a tendency for random MOM to want to make a flight matrix some time before the contest starts (F3K is largely becoming this way) and unfortunate souls who often can't be sure if they can attend a contest till the day before are sort of out of luck compared to the days of old where you just showed up at a contest and entered.

Ryan
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 11:35 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,706 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdjsky01 View Post
Worst part about Thermal contests. Lack of experienced people willing to time for newbies.
Finding a timer is easy in mid sized Seeded MOM contests.

It is totally against what logic would tell you. A person would think that a random draw pre announced big contest would have tons of people to for you. I find this is the opposite. At big contests where people have the flight group assignments early they tend to pair off and are sometimes resistant to time for other people for fear of messing up the guy they have agreed to time for.

At a seeded MOM contest nobody can really pair up unless you really are pairing a low skilled pilot with a high skilled pilot. Because of this everybody has to be on the constant ask for a timer. Before a round in a medium size contest you can see who is going out with a timer and you know who isn't in your flight group so you can find a quick list of guys to ask. Guys are less likely to turn an ask for a timer down because they themselves know that with the unpredictable nature of seeded MOM they well might be in a pinch and need to ask you to time for them later that day.

At least that is my experience anyway.



Ryan
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 11:42 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
14,706 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GliderJim View Post
Ideally, being the new guy or out-of-towner, someone from the host club would reach out and assist with making sure you have a timer each round. Obviously that doesn't always happen.
St. Louis does an interesting thing with their club contests where they have a rule that people can only have a person time for them once before they have every other contestant in the contest time for them. This really encourages people to get outside their comfort zone and is a huge help for new pilots.

Ryan
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Mark Miller's Avatar
St. Louis, MO
Joined Oct 2002
2,716 Posts
What we do with timers here in St. Louis has turned into a suggestion and not a rule. We find it works well to mix it up. We decided to not make it a rule mainly on my suggestion. My son Brendan comes and flies as much as he can. I like to have him time for me and vice versa because I do not get enough flying time with him as I'd like. We still get split when we are in the same flight group and that's ok. I did not want a rule that would prevent a fathers spending time with his son.
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