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Old Oct 19, 2012, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Viking64 View Post
If you change to a straight hinge line you will need more rudder deflection to get the same results and possibly get more drag. Just a thought.

Dave
I don't think so. With the single hinge line, you get the whole tail with similar camber and similar angle of attack. With the stock hinge line, part of the rudder has no camber and a larger angle of attack, so it "disagrees". Then you've got the big gap in the middle of it, spilling air.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by edfmaniac View Post
I think you should go with solid wood as the tail feathers on a self launching glider encounter a lot more turbulence under power. Learn to enjoy the extra weight of the e powered models because you'll get to fly in a lot more conditions with the extra ballast.
Maybe, but the normal launch may have a lot more air speed!

I think if the powered version weighs much more than the old version that used the old radio components, someone has been greedy about power. The old radio stuff, when I started the hobby, was two ounces per servo and receiver, 4 ounces for the batteries, for a total of 10 ounces. Today, I think the lipo pack would be about the same, the servos and receiver would be a half ounce each or less, and you'd have 6 ounces available for the motor, prop, and speed control.

I don't think the structural issues are all that important, since a built up stab can use a bit of spruce or something near the center if required. Ballast is something that can be added later. There's room for quite a bit under the wing. I used to put a bunch of rocks wrapped in paper towels in there for ballast.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 01:34 AM
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I once changed a spade over rudder on a small glider with a conventional rudder and the difference was dramatic. Especially on the launch, way less sensative to rudder input.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 07:37 AM
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Thinking of Installing E-Power ?
____________________________

Why do some people have a mind set of "for or against" the growing popularity of building Woody Sailplanes and installing electric motors to launch them ? Or, as Jack Iafret describes it so well ... "a winch in the nose".

I read on RC Groups people actually putting a downer on anyone that would consider installing an electric motor in a sailplane. I don't get it. People want to tell ( control ) others how to enjoy the hobby of building model airplanes ??

Here is my short list that I think describes the benefits of each type of sailplane. From my point of view, I see posters on RC Groups trying to decide what kit to purchase and if they should install an electric motor, I believe it all comes down to how and where you are going to fly the sailplane.

The first thing I suggest is join an open minded sailplane club if possible. My second suggestion is realize your kit purchase will likely not be your one and only kit purchase. Third, when you ask a question on RC Groups, you will be astounded at reply's from folks that: A. don't build, B. have only one small experience with electric sailplanes or none. Consequently, be prepared to be a little more confused than you were before asking the question. I hope the following is helpful.

Ray's Short List ...

1. The only thing different in the build is installing the motor and components and working the front end of the fuse.

2. The gain in flying weight for E-Power is negligible unless you screw up by doing a poor job of glassing the fuse or using a larger battery and/or motor (too heavy) than necessary.

3. If you are not already an accomplished Thermal Pilot, you most likely will have a tendency to rely more on the motor to save your plane than learning the finer skills of flying a motorless sailplane. That's Human nature at work. Many new pilots have a tendency to fly their E Powered "sailplane" more like a motor powered airplane and never get into the challenge and rewards of learning to Thermal Soar.

4. Where you fly can determine installing E-Power, small flying fields are plentiful and the relative silence of E-Power flying allows you to fly without disturbing surrounding neighbors. A winch or hi-start need a little more room. BTW, please don't use the excuse that setting up a winch or hi-start is too much bother, the calories you burn walking will add time to your life span and improve your present physical endurance qualities. Pot bellies are UGLY and cause back and knee problems. Easy for me to say, I have continued my walking routine, but have reduced my calorie intake (diet) and have lost 15 pounds in six months.

5. The obvious ... your missing something ( or a lot ) if you don't fly both electric and non electric. My best example, Bill Grenoble and I flew Max Patch for two days ( thousand mile plus round trip for each of us ) , I had my 2ME Lil Bird and non electric 2M Osprey. The first day's wind direction worked for both non and electric sailplanes, the second day worked just for the electrics. With the electrics we could check out different, far away areas for lift. This was our first trip to Max Patch, but not my last.

Ray Hayes LSF 803
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 08:37 AM
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Good post Ray, right on. BTW, my wife put me on the Atkins/South Beach diet when I got home, and after two weeks, I've lost 12 pounds. I'll keep on it. Bill G.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 09:35 AM
1984 is no longer fiction
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There was a time when people were against putting an electric starter in an automobile. Starters were thought to be the cause of fires and were for "lazy" people who did not want to hand crank their cars. (I can see the TV ads now, "The new Lexus, easier to crank than every other car in its class". DUH

What I find most interesting, is the full scale sailplane guys don't seem to have an issue with "self launched" gliders. They are more sought after and more valuable.
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

Hobby shops can't keep Radians in stock
Every time I want to order a folding prop, its on backorder
Every time I want to order an outrunner motor, its on backorder
The electric glider and ALES forums have much more traffic than Thermal

The handwriting is on the wall folks.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 10:03 AM
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Scott,

I think you missed the point of my POST:

"Why do some people have a mind set of "for or against" the growing popularity of building Woody Sailplanes and installing electric motors to launch them ?

I don't want a bunch of guys posting here advocating like you have in your post..

It is all good brother.

Ray
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawksnest View Post
Good post Ray, right on. BTW, my wife put me on the Atkins/South Beach diet when I got home, and after two weeks, I've lost 12 pounds. I'll keep on it. Bill G.

Congratulations Bill, betcha you feel younger.

Now there is a trick to this weight loss endeavor ... it's called keeping it off.

The Toughest part of the program. ...
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 11:26 AM
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I don't know why some people have the mind set that you have to have one or the other.

Personally I have both. And I like flying both. I don't give a squatt how the plane gets in the air.

I just like being a kid again at 69 and having fun.

Some of the comments I've read on here regarding a pure versus a power sailplane kind of reminds me of when I was a kid and playing ball. Some kid would say you can't do it that way,so I'm going to take my ball and go home. It's like,if you don't launch on a winch,you can't play,or visa versa.

As far as the flying aspects of a pure versus a powered sailplane for those of us that are just out to have fun,in my opinion are the same.

A couple weeks ago I was at our field.There were two of us flying (both Skybench planes) I was flying my Electric Oly III and he was launching off the winch with his Big Bird XL. We were both having fun,and both planes performed very well together,his pure and my electric.

The thermals didn't care whether his pure or my electric found them. They just lets us play with them.

I do know, I want to build a Big Bird XL after watching his Big Bird XL fly.

Ray,I'll be ordering a Big Bird XL soon. Whether it will be pure or electric,I don't know.

Just my opinion. If you don't like it you can take your ball and go home.

Eddie
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 11:45 AM
May the Wind Always be Good
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Ray and Eddie you both have the right though on sailplanes ...I fly both and they each have there place and time to fly...The main thing is are we haveing Fun...May the Wind Always be Good....Mr. Kite ...
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 12:25 PM
1984 is no longer fiction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes View Post
Scott,

I think you missed the point of my POST:

"Why do some people have a mind set of "for or against" the growing popularity of building Woody Sailplanes and installing electric motors to launch them ?

I don't want a bunch of guys posting here advocating like you have in your post..

It is all good brother.

Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
WWW.Skybench.com
Ray,
Please forgive me if I went a bit overboard. I have both pure and electric sailplanes and the sky is certainly big enough for both.
I will certainly always have both. There is nothing quite like hand launching into a thermal and flying away for an hour.

I just get riled up when people get down on electric and my point is that electric has many benefits and in my opinion is destined to become a large part of our sport.

And since the younger generation of kids grew up NOT building models, what better way to get new blood than a ready to go electric ARF. Those new pilots are certainly destined to become the next generation of pure sailplane owners and builders. (if not them, who else?)

I used to run a hobby shop and we had a similar situation years ago with gas vs electric cars. Today both are accepted and considered mainstream.

I believe ALES/Electric gliders will become mainstream in record time and most local contests will include both on a regular basis.
(And the differences of opinion will be long forgotten)
Scott
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 03:01 PM
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bbxl epower setup info

Quote:
Originally Posted by hog2soar View Post
..I do know, I want to build a Big Bird XL after watching his Big Bird XL fly.Ray,I'll be ordering a Big Bird XL soon. Whether it will be pure or electric...
Hi Eddie.
Here is recent link Dave started describing his e-power setup for a BBXL. A lot of good info.


john s.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 04:07 PM
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I hope you don't think that, when I refer to the "ugly spinning thing on the front", that I'm opposing electric models. I have a Radian myself and have competed in ALES a few times. However, I think your point number 3 is a real issue! Even for experienced flyers, it's easy to get sucked in, followed closely by boredom. And, of course, they really are uglier. And a little draggier.
re your points:
1. Agreed, although I think an optimized electric launched glider would actually be set up with the motor elsewhere, so it's less draggy and vulnerable.
2. Certainly that's true if comparing older designs with their original radio equipment with what we can do now.
3. See above. Not just a hazard for beginners. Especially if you like to fly far away and, if necessary, low, in a TD contest, and then the motor won't come on because it's not there! I advocate turning on only once, climbing to altitude, and then leave the throttle alone until you're down to 10 feet or less. If you can do that, then you avoid the hazard.
4. Definitely allows more sites to be used.
Walking is good. I fly fairly often though, and I can say that I'd probably need a 1 mile long high start to make a significant change in my weight! And if you're not careful, carrying winch batteries can be tough on your back.
5. Maybe, but I think checking out far away areas of lift by taking advantage of the electric can lead to bad habits when you go back to unpowered.

I'll continue to tease those who put ugly spinning things on the front. Even though I'm one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes View Post
Thinking of Installing E-Power ?
____________________________

Why do some people have a mind set of "for or against" the growing popularity of building Woody Sailplanes and installing electric motors to launch them ? Or, as Jack Iafret describes it so well ... "a winch in the nose".

I read on RC Groups people actually putting a downer on anyone that would consider installing an electric motor in a sailplane. I don't get it. People want to tell ( control ) others how to enjoy the hobby of building model airplanes ??

snip

Ray's Short List ...

1. The only thing different in the build is installing the motor and components and working the front end of the fuse.

2. The gain in flying weight for E-Power is negligible unless you screw up by doing a poor job of glassing the fuse or using a larger battery and/or motor (too heavy) than necessary.

3. If you are not already an accomplished Thermal Pilot, you most likely will have a tendency to rely more on the motor to save your plane than learning the finer skills of flying a motorless sailplane. That's Human nature at work. Many new pilots have a tendency to fly their E Powered "sailplane" more like a motor powered airplane and never get into the challenge and rewards of learning to Thermal Soar.

4. Where you fly can determine installing E-Power, small flying fields are plentiful and the relative silence of E-Power flying allows you to fly without disturbing surrounding neighbors. A winch or hi-start need a little more room. BTW, please don't use the excuse that setting up a winch or hi-start is too much bother, the calories you burn walking will add time to your life span and improve your present physical endurance qualities. Pot bellies are UGLY and cause back and knee problems. Easy for me to say, I have continued my walking routine, but have reduced my calorie intake (diet) and have lost 15 pounds in six months.

5. The obvious ... your missing something ( or a lot ) if you don't fly both electric and non electric. My best example, Bill Grenoble and I flew Max Patch for two days ( thousand mile plus round trip for each of us ) , I had my 2ME Lil Bird and non electric 2M Osprey. The first day's wind direction worked for both non and electric sailplanes, the second day worked just for the electrics. With the electrics we could check out different, far away areas for lift. This was our first trip to Max Patch, but not my last.

Ray Hayes LSF 803
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 11:07 PM
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United States, NM, Albuquerque
Joined Nov 2011
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I love electrifying Ray's kits. So far I have built a 2 meter BB, 100" BB, BBXL, Paragon and an Oly 3.
I have a medical problem that limits my ability to walk. If it weren't for electrics I would have a hard time flying sailplanes.
I don't pass judgement on those that prefer a winch or highstart. To each his own, as long as you are enjoying the hobby!
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jswain View Post
Hi Eddie.
Here is recent link Dave started describing his e-power setup for a BBXL. A lot of good info.


john s.
John,

Thanks for the link to Dave's electric BB XL, great information.

Ray
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