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Old Apr 15, 2011, 09:24 PM
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Ultimate Solenoid - Contactor for our winches

Hi Guys, I've been researching for appropriate parts to build an F3B winch someday and came across what I think is an awesome deal for Super Duty Solenoids.

I can get these for about 1/2 price as what is listed in Newark or Mouser
I'm going to order a few for myself and some friends and if anyone wants to get in on the deal PM me for details.

Suffice to say these will outperform any Cole Hersee solenoids and I would not hesitate to run just one of these vs. 2 Hersee in series on any winch.

Edit: I'm getting a few pm's asking for details, so thought I would post it here, but all the info is in the spec sheet. The actual number of actuations is dependent on current and voltage. See graph below.

Mechanical actuations is rated for 1,000,000. This number is just the coil moving the conductor to make contact. No load is across the stud screws.

The coil requires 9V to start moving the conductor, but requires just 7.5V to maintain closed circuit. If battery Voltage drops to 6V the coil won't work.
If the battery is too weak to work the solenoid, it'll be too weak to spin the motor.

The coil could draw a spike of 3.8A for .13 seconds, but this would be when the battery is 9V (34.2w). At 12V, I would guess between 2.8-3.5A for same amount of time. The avg power required to hold the the conductor closed is 1.6 watts
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Last edited by fnnwizard; Apr 20, 2011 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Added life expectancy graph and additional info
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 09:40 AM
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USA, CT, Stamford
Joined Jun 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnnwizard View Post
Hi Guys, I've been researching for appropriate parts to build an F3B winch someday and came across what I think is an awesome deal for Super Duty Solenoids.

I can get these for about 1/2 price as what is listed in Newark or Mouser
I'm going to order a few for myself and some friends and if anyone wants to get in on the deal PM me for details.

Suffice to say these will outperform any Cole Hersee solenoids and I would not hesitate to run just one of these vs. 2 Hersee in series on any winch.
But wouldn't you still want 2 solenoids for safety? This looks like a very robust solenoid but it still could fail. With 2 lesser solenoids your failure rate increases but it seems to me you reduce the chance of a catastrophic failure. For a Uber winch we could just use 2 of these but that starts getting expensive.

Louis
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 06:50 PM
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Harbor City, CA
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Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post
But wouldn't you still want 2 solenoids for safety? This looks like a very robust solenoid but it still could fail. With 2 lesser solenoids your failure rate increases but it seems to me you reduce the chance of a catastrophic failure. For a Uber winch we could just use 2 of these but that starts getting expensive.

Louis
It's funny to me that the TD group of pilots are even more set in their ways than slope guys....
Since everybody has been using two solenoids in series, that is the accepted way.
It DOES offer redundancy, but you are basically giving two solenoids the same punishment.
Our group of flyers has had a winch that is known to fold wings occasionally, and it seems to eat the Cole Hersee solenoids, used in the standard series fashion. I mentioned to the winch owner, who has now added a knife switch as a safety on the battery, about running the solenoids in parallel, to halve the load on each.
He was perplexed by my suggestion, since nobody does that....
But when you think about it, since we have had the problem of the winch getting locked up with two solenoids in series for redundancy, wouldn't it make sense to either lighten the load on the solenoids, if possible, or use solenoid(s) with a higher rating?
I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but progress is slowed by copying exactly what the guys before you have done, IMO...

On a side note, I can now see the wisdom in the LED lights that are tied into the solenoid circuits; without them, its fairly tough to catch a single solenoid that is locked closed when used in a pair in series.

This is the one that we are ordering and intending to use in series:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...GbNH2aB71sE%3d

We found out about the one that Tuan has a line on too late; the order was in already. Price is about the same as the lower rated Cole Hersee's (I think).

No disrespect of any kind intended by any of this blather; just want to see what comes of thinking outside the box.

R,
Target
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:02 PM
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Yea, the 2 series connected solenoid will offer redundancy to break the circuit if something goes wrong which is still a good idea. It just that if I had to choose between the 2 Cole Hersee setup or the 1 Kilovac I'd go with the 1 kilovac.

Like Target mentioned, both are being subjected to the same current, though I wonder if one will be more prone to arcs depending on the position in the circuit. And yes, unless you have one of those Miami Mike circuits, it's hard to tell if one of the 2 solenoids is sticking closed.

With most good footswitches, there's usually provisions to have a a second switch inside to make it a 2 stage switch. This way one can wire it so that just one of the solenoid does the make and break while under load. Both will still carry the current but the make/break is where the damage is being done to the contacts.
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:14 PM
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Question.... other than reliability, what other benefits come from a higher quality solenoid?

Thanks in advance for the info.

Kyle
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyle Paulson View Post
Question.... other than reliability, what other benefits come from a higher quality solenoid?

Thanks in advance for the info.

Kyle
Other than reliability, it should mean more consistent power to the brushes of the motor. How much more? Probably not enough to worry about given how short we run them. But if you compare to less able contactors, after some useage the connection point in the contactor doesn't provide as clean or as low a resistance connection as the good contactors. Is it measurable? Probably, at the high current ratings.

What's the rating on the Ober contactors anyway? I thought I had read 150A continuous somewhere once. They sure look hefty, any reports of those ever getting stuck or malfunctioning?
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:42 PM
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There are two different solenoids available on the Ober. I believe the standard one is what comes with the Bosch motor. The other one is a Bosch 0 333 006 004 which is rated at 800A for short duration.

That is also the standard solenoid with the 3M100 motor version of the winch.
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 08:57 PM
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Thanks Mike L. So the std one is the 150A one right?

One other thing about these contactors (Edit, Talking about the Tyco's), they are rated at 500 Amps continuous in 85 degrees Celcius, that 185 degrees F. Not the typical 25C.

The size of the conductor is 2x that of 4/0 gauge wire. I doubt many here have seen 4/0 wire.
For reference:
Gauge ----- mm^2

4 AWG --- 21.15
2 AWG --- 33.62
1 AWG --- 42.41
1/0 AWG --- 53.49
2/0 AWG --- 67.23
3/0 AWG --- 85.01
4/0 AWG --- 107.2

400MCM --- 202.7
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 10:37 PM
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This is how the better Ober solenoids Mike described look like.

From Ober's webiste

"Optional we sell our winches with an relay of higher value, by what the motor can get about 2% more of current"

Glauco
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by target View Post
It's funny to me that the TD group of pilots are even more set in their ways than slope guys....
Since everybody has been using two solenoids in series, that is the accepted way.
It DOES offer redundancy, but you are basically giving two solenoids the same punishment.
Our group of flyers has had a winch that is known to fold wings occasionally, and it seems to eat the Cole Hersee solenoids, used in the standard series fashion. I mentioned to the winch owner, who has now added a knife switch as a safety on the battery, about running the solenoids in parallel, to halve the load on each.
He was perplexed by my suggestion, since nobody does that....
But when you think about it, since we have had the problem of the winch getting locked up with two solenoids in series for redundancy, wouldn't it make sense to either lighten the load on the solenoids, if possible, or use solenoid(s) with a higher rating?
I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but progress is slowed by copying exactly what the guys before you have done, IMO...

On a side note, I can now see the wisdom in the LED lights that are tied into the solenoid circuits; without them, its fairly tough to catch a single solenoid that is locked closed when used in a pair in series.

This is the one that we are ordering and intending to use in series:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...GbNH2aB71sE%3d

We found out about the one that Tuan has a line on too late; the order was in already. Price is about the same as the lower rated Cole Hersee's (I think).

No disrespect of any kind intended by any of this blather; just want to see what comes of thinking outside the box.

R,
Target
Both solenoids don't have to get the same punishment if you use a dual contact foot switch. And at least with dual in series solenoids and the led warning system you have some protection. I wouldn't want to reply on a manual disconect, which is where I end up with a single solenoid.

I agree the Cole Hersees are being abused but I think we are confusing proper design with inferior parts selection. I'm in the process of refurbishing my winch and I've just purchased these from Injoy:
http://www.injoy-1.com/images/prodim...20solenoid.jpg

Theses are rated at 200 amps continious. Still not at the level of the one you've speced but half again the price.

Still, if I hadn't bought them I'd be tempted to buy 2 of these Super Duty Solenoids.

I do like your idea of running parallel solenoids but I'd still two more in series.

Louis
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Last edited by Mathelo; Apr 19, 2011 at 04:36 PM. Reason: technical correction
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Old Apr 17, 2011, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glauco View Post
This is how the better Ober solenoids Mike described look like.

From Ober's webiste

"Optional we sell our winches with an relay of higher value, by what the motor can get about 2% more of current"

Glauco
That's interesting Glauco. I'm including a pdf of what I have. I am not 100% sure of the part number of the "regular" power relay that comes with the Obers but I think the specs should be similar to the one in the pdf. That is the 150 Amp continuous.

The part number that Mike mentions is actually a cheaper 80Amp continuous solenoid.

The important number to me is actually the interrupt current. The stock solenoid is 200A but the optional one is only 80A.

I should note that for F3B winches, there usually isn't any tapping so interrupt current isn't anywhere near 400A. But would think the interrupt current may be in the 200 A range???

To Kyle, Also need to add: since the Kilovacs are designed to use only about 1.7W while making contact, more available power is reserve for the winch motor. Some solenoids require 30-50watts to maintain contact conductivity. Something to think about...
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Old Apr 18, 2011, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mlachow View Post
There are two different solenoids available on the Ober. I believe the standard one is what comes with the Bosch motor. The other one is a Bosch 0 333 006 004 which is rated at 800A for short duration.

That is also the standard solenoid with the 3M100 motor version of the winch.
The standard solenoid draws about 10Amp for working, the more efficient Bosch only uses 1,1 Amp.

BR
Nick-NL
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Old Apr 18, 2011, 06:18 PM
Roman Vojtech
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The most often failing part of F3B winch is solenoid. I use only mentioned high efficency BOSCH solenoids (as Glauco mentioned). The others had nearly 30-40A as Nick-NL mentioned. On my Hollenbeck this solenoid has 1000s launches without any glitch. I can only recommend it. Yes, it's not cheap.

Under stronger wind is current close to 400A for more than 7-10sec without problems. From attached pict. you can see launch at 1-2m/s wind. Sure, also depends on model setup. Goal is to have as much tension as possible i.e. as much current as possible.

BR
Roman
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Old Apr 18, 2011, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lomcovak. View Post
The most often failing part of F3B winch is solenoid. I use only mentioned high efficency BOSCH solenoids (as Glauco mentioned). The others had nearly 30-40A as Nick-NL mentioned. On my Hollenbeck this solenoid has 1000s launches without any glitch. I can only recommend it. Yes, it's not cheap.

Under stronger wind is current close to 400A for more than 7-10sec without problems. From attached pict. you can see launch at 1-2m/s wind. Sure, also depends on model setup. Goal is to have as much tension as possible i.e. as much current as possible.

BR
Roman
Do you use these in series? If not, what is your protection against a frozen solenoid?

Louis
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Old Apr 18, 2011, 07:13 PM
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My all time favorite is the Stancor 586-902. The only think I like better about the Bosch is it is an all metal case. I have only replaced one Stancor in about 10 years on three winches and that was because the case got cracked. It's only 0.6A draw so even lower power than the Bosch.
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