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Old Dec 12, 2012, 02:42 AM
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Thanks Joel. So this is kinda like a stall close to the ground isn't it?
I don't know if I have the skill for it, I mean a few days a go I did my first spot on landing.
I'll practice and see how it goes!

It doesn't glide across the snow because the snow is way too soft. Also too much gliding once it hardens could still fill the battery hole.

But what do you guys think about my flaps idea?
It implies remotely switching one of the ailerons to have it's signal pass through a servo reverser.
Then I could get both ailerons down, elevator up and brake the plane.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by vadimpelau View Post
Thanks Joel. So this is kinda like a stall close to the ground isn't it?
I don't know if I have the skill for it, I mean a few days a go I did my first spot on landing.
I'll practice and see how it goes!

It doesn't glide across the snow because the snow is way too soft. Also too much gliding once it hardens could still fill the battery hole.

But what do you guys think about my flaps idea?
It implies remotely switching one of the ailerons to have it's signal pass through a servo reverser.
Then I could get both ailerons down, elevator up and brake the plane.
What happens to aileron control at that point?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 05:05 AM
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Both ailerons would go either up or down. Essentially they would become flaps (right term I hope).

You would have no aileron control for rolls anymore, this is why I thought of this as a breaking system for landings only. you're supposed to be nicely lined up with the runway at this point.

Also I tested and there is no need for a reverser, you could simply feed the servo signal form right to left ail or vice versa.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by vadimpelau View Post
Both ailerons would go either up or down. Essentially they would become flaps (right term I hope).

You would have no aileron control for rolls anymore, this is why I thought of this as a breaking system for landings only. you're supposed to be nicely lined up with the runway at this point.

Also I tested and there is no need for a reverser, you could simply feed the servo signal form right to left ail or vice versa.
This can all be done with programing. The AS6410NBL rx used in the mig can be programed to separate channel 2 and 6. Plug one aileron servo into each. Program flaperons into the tx. I would program for up flap (spoilers) so she will be less prone to tip stall. You will still have aileron control with the spoilers deployed. You will however need to cut back on servo travel so that total travel, aileron plus spoiler does not try to drive the servo past it's limit or it will jam.

Having said all that I have not found it needed to be able to plop the mig down at my feet.

Dr John
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:03 AM
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This has already been discussed. Using the gear channel for aileron purposes will greatly affect stability and flight performance as you would only have the other aileron under as3x control.

I didn't need to plop the plane at my feet until last week:
Weather Forida
Weather Cluj

So, since I do not want snow filling up my thrust tube and turning into water anywhere near my motor or battery I need to land in a very tight spot.

The question is if normal tx controlled switches (used to control lights etc) can be used for the servo's signal wire.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:16 AM
Dr John
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You are correct. I was not thinking about the AS3X. Sorry.

Dr John
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by vadimpelau View Post
Thanks Joel. So this is kinda like a stall close to the ground isn't it?
I don't know if I have the skill for it, I mean a few days a go I did my first spot on landing.
I'll practice and see how it goes!

It doesn't glide across the snow because the snow is way too soft. Also too much gliding once it hardens could still fill the battery hole.

But what do you guys think about my flaps idea?
It implies remotely switching one of the ailerons to have it's signal pass through a servo reverser.
Then I could get both ailerons down, elevator up and brake the plane.
In general, all landings are essentially stalls very close to the ground. You are not supposed to force planes onto the ground while they are still flying.

As we have already told you - the ailerons would need to go up with up-elevator. That's how you slow down for landings with sailplanes.

However - the point is moot. I don't think your idea is the least bit practical. It is certainly not worth spending any time on at all. Even if you could get it to work, you'd lose roll-control when you flipped the switch. Besides - the plane is easy to spot-land if you know how to land properly.

Instead of attempting to re-invent the wheel & complicating the landing process, you would be much better-off working on your landing technique. If you master the technique I described, you will be able to land the plane at your feet nearly every time. More importantly - learning the proper landing technique will make you a better pilot. Screwing around with flaperons & spoilerons on a plane that doesn't need them at all won't improve your flying skills one bit.

Learn to fly the plane!

Joel
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Well it's not like I'm going to master this in the few flying sessions I'll get this winter and modding didn't hurt anyone.

The method you described should work fine in the winter and on nice grass but say you have a thin asphalt strip, most youtube videos I've seen with pilots much better than myself either scratch the fuselage or end up in the dirt no matter how long the strip.
The way I fly I would probably end up with a stall and land on one of the wings.

Planes this size can do without a rudder or a steering wheel, yet they are nice additions.
I think air brakes would be too.
So far the best advice I've got is to use a v-tail mixer and use the gear channel to deploy ailerons as breaks. Might even leave some ail maneuverability depending on the configuration.
Remains to be seen if a turingy one induces lag/noise etc.

What I don't know so far is if there are any 3-way servo switches out there or if the simple switches can be used for servo signal.
Any help in this direction or v-tail mixers on AS3X boards are welcome.

And yes I know this will disable ail control, I know better piloting skills mean better landings.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vadimpelau View Post
Well it's not like I'm going to master this in the few flying sessions I'll get this winter and modding didn't hurt anyone.

The method you described should work fine in the winter and on nice grass but say you have a thin asphalt strip, most youtube videos I've seen with pilots much better than myself either scratch the fuselage or end up in the dirt no matter how long the strip.
The way I fly I would probably end up with a stall and land on one of the wings.

Planes this size can do without a rudder or a steering wheel, yet they are nice additions.
I think air brakes would be too.
So far the best advice I've got is to use a v-tail mixer and use the gear channel to deploy ailerons as breaks. Might even leave some ail maneuverability depending on the configuration.
Remains to be seen if a turingy one induces lag/noise etc.

What I don't knowso far is if there are any 3-way servo switches out there or if the simple switches can be used for servo signal.
Any help in this direction or v-tail mixers on AS3X boards are welcome.

And yes I know this will disable ail control, I know better piloting skills mean better landings.
The technique I described will always result in the slowest possible landing speed and the shortest possible landing distance - regardless of what runway you're on.

Planes of this size need a rudder to take off, fly, and land in any amount of crosswind. Properly designed stand-alone airbrakes & stand-alone flaps work well, but there is a weight penalty - and the last thing this plane needs is more weight.

It is quite possible that adding all of that hardware will increase the wing-loading & therefore the landing speed enough to outweigh any possible benefit.

I have no idea if there are any micro-weight switches that would work. I'm not sure how a V-tail mixer would work with AS3X. Again - the point is moot. Disabling roll-control on approach is a very bad idea. Most likely, it will eventually lead to a crash. Inexperienced pilots having to flip switches just before touchdown is also a recipe for a crash. Your goal was to make the plane easier to land. All of the above will make the plane harder to land. Conversely - working on your landing technique will make all planes much easier to land.

As we have stated a number of times - you would be much better-off spending time honing your landing skills. Instead of wasting time attempting to re-invent the wheel, spend that time on the sim practicing the correct landing technique. If you don't have a good sim - get one ASAP. It will pay for itself in short order. A good sim, a high-quality, full-featured transmitter, and a good multi-chemistry charger that displays charge/discharge info are the best three investments you can make if you're serious about this hobby.

A number of knowledgeable, veteran pilots on here have tried to steer you in the proper direction - yet you invariably find an excuse to not heed the advice. You asked for our opinions. We responded. Either heed the advice of those who have far more experience than you, or do it your own way.

Your call.

Joel
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:43 PM
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The technique I described will always result in the slowest possible landing speed and the shortest possible landing distance - regardless of what runway you're on.

Planes of this size need a rudder to take off, fly, and land in any amount of crosswind. Properly designed stand-alone airbrakes & stand-alone flaps work well, but there is a weight penalty - and the last thing this plane needs is more weight.

It is quite possible that adding all of that hardware will increase the wing-loading & therefore the landing speed enough to outweigh any possible benefit.

I have no idea if there are any micro-weight switches that would work. I'm not sure how a V-tail mixer would work with AS3X. Again - the point is moot. Disabling roll-control on approach is a very bad idea. Most likely, it will eventually lead to a crash. Inexperienced pilots having to flip switches just before touchdown is also a recipe for a crash. Your goal was to make the plane easier to land. All of the above will make the plane harder to land. Conversely - working on your landing technique will make all planes much easier to land.

As we have stated a number of times - you would be much better-off spending time honing your landing skills. Instead of wasting time attempting to re-invent the wheel, spend that time on the sim practicing the correct landing technique. If you don't have a good sim - get one ASAP. It will pay for itself in short order. A good sim, a high-quality, full-featured transmitter, and a good multi-chemistry charger that displays charge/discharge info are the best three investments you can make if you're serious about this hobby.

A number of knowledgeable, veteran pilots on here have tried to steer you in the proper direction - yet you invariably find an excuse to not heed the advice. You asked for our opinions. We responded. Either heed the advice of those who have far more experience than you, or do it your own way.

Your call.

Joel
+1---You also don't know how the plane will react with flaps...My guess is that the center of pressure would move forward, causing the nose to pitch up...If the nose is already slightly pitched up as it should be you could induce a stall...

Rudder is your friend---Learn to use it!!!...I fly coordinated turns...This MiG also has a slight rolling component when using the rudder...Small rudder movements will just wag the tail---Large rudder movements will allow for banked turns using rudder alone...

This plane will fly slower than you would expect...Get it up high and pull the power back and slightly raise the nose---This plane will fly at a crawl just before the stall...When you see how well the plane will slowly fly, fly a few practice landing patterns...When you get the hang of how well this plane slowly flies, about a foot off of the ground reduce power and the plane will practically land itself..

Kevin
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 02:55 PM
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Either heed the advice of those who have far more experience than you, or do it your own way.
Don't know if you guys realize the time it took you to get that experience. After you get it it's as easy as walking. I've seen the same with helis when I try to teach my friends. It's useless to tell them how they're supposed to set the tx up, they'll always want more expo, less travel a smooth 0-100 throttle and pitch curve until it flies like a coaxial.
I have yet to see anyone progress from that stage to flying inverted, the throttle stick will forever have too little travel for them.

I do fly on the sim, I have the Phoenix sim, the dX7s and I train with the HABU 2 and it's just not the same).

I always set rudder on 100% but compared to the sim where coordinated turns make sense, the mig's simply does not seem to have enough authority (to me).
I also fly with my back to a forest so I like my turns nice and sharp.
Most planes this size and larger come without a rudder.

As for landings that was never an issue since the mig was my first plane and I never experienced winter with it/never expected to have such an early winter with this much snow. Since it came out 'till a few weeks ago distance was never an issue, worst case scenario, it would stop in some thistles.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by vadimpelau View Post
Don't know if you guys realize the time it took you to get that experience. After you get it it's as easy as walking. I've seen the same with helis when I try to teach my friends. It's useless to tell them how they're supposed to set the tx up, they'll always want more expo, less travel a smooth 0-100 throttle and pitch curve until it flies like a coaxial.
I have yet to see anyone progress from that stage to flying inverted, the throttle stick will forever have too little travel for them.

I do fly on the sim, I have the Phoenix sim, the dX7s and I train with the HABU 2 and it's just not the same).

I always set rudder on 100% but compared to the sim where coordinated turns make sense, the mig's simply does not seem to have enough authority (to me).
I also fly with my back to a forest so I like my turns nice and sharp.
Most planes this size and larger come without a rudder.
Do what Kevin suggested & explore the low-speed handling characteristics. The plane is a pussycat. I also suggest trying to find a model in the sim that flies more like the MiG & work on the landing technique I suggested. As I noted - once you get it down, all of your planes will 'magically' become much easier to land.

Regarding rudder authority - the MiG is a true-scale outline plane. The tail surfaces are not oversize, as is typical on small models. Therefore, the plane needs all of the rudder throw it can get for decent rudder authority, and it needs pretty much all of the elevator throw it can get for a decent nose-high landing. Be sure to move the rudder & elevator pushrods to the innermost holes on the horns. Incidentally, the same is true for the UMX Beast, Carbon Cub, and Gee Bee - which are also true-scale outline planes with scale tail feathers.

Regarding how long it took for us to get there - in my case, I got there during my first flying season. I learned to control altitude with throttle & airspeed with elevator throughout the entire landing phase right away. I also learned to use coordinated rudder in turns right away. I spent most of my first flying season working on my takeoff & landing techniques, and practicing putting the aircraft where I want it to be, rather than reacting to what it just did. Club instructors usually teach that stuff to new fixed-wing pilots early-on. It is much better to learn things the right way right away, before bad habits set in. It's always more difficult to learn how to do things right later on.

I don't understand your comment regarding planes this size and larger not usually having a rudder. I see plenty of larger jets with full 4-channel control - plus retracts, tailerons, flaps, airbrakes, and even 3-axis thrust-vectoring. I know that I would certainly not want a plane without a rudder. Forward slips, side-slips, and the crosswind-crab are impossible without a rudder, so landing in any appreciable crosswind is pretty much out of the question. Sustained KE passes also require rudder, and a high-speed sustained KE pass down low is one of my favorite jet maneuvers.

I'm done discussing the flaperon/reflex/speedbrake/crow thing. I gave you my honest opinion, as have others. The rest is up to you.

Joel
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:57 PM
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Vad, using rudder in turns does not make the turns larger. Rudder is extremely useful if you want to turn right, use it like you would on a coordinated turn(even a yank and bank) and the plane will start the turn much sooner and smoother.

Also you cant bank and yank at slow speed, at slow speed rudder is extremely useful to turn tight and stay flat so you dont drop.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:47 PM
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I don't understand your comment regarding planes this size and larger not usually having a rudder.
Joel
Well then you're not visiting hobbyking very often. There's hardly any 30mm or 40mm jets with ruder control except this mig and the GP sabre.
As for trainers? What trainers? Ain't nobody got time for that and there's not that many people flying in the area where I live. Especially not micros.
No "season" for me either as I had to prepare for the medical licensing examination the whole summer.

I do use full rudder but not elevator and ail. Will practice as much as the weather allows me to since I probably won't be able to get the parts I need thanks to the holiday season.

As for the braking system, I will make it work and see how it handles and continue the development over here.
If it will be worth it, I'll post the instructions and needed parts in the mod thread.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:01 PM
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Well then you're not visiting hobbyking very often. There's hardly any 30mm or 40mm jets with ruder control except this mig and the GP sabre.
As for trainers? What trainers? Ain't nobody got time for that and there's not that many people flying in the area where I live. Especially not micros.
No "season" for me either as I had to prepare for the medical licensing examination the whole summer.

I do use full rudder but not elevator and ail. Will practice as much as the weather allows me to since I probably won't be able to get the parts I need thanks to the holiday season.

As for the braking system, I will make it work and see how it handles and continue the development over here.

If it will be worth it, I'll post the instructions and needed parts in the mod thread.

Ohhh...I honestly can say you have a LOT to learn if Hobby King is your "go to" place for ducted fans......

You say that you have extensive heli experience...Think of how your heli would fly in forward flight if you didn't coordinate the rudder in the turns...The heli would just slide off to whatever side you were flying from and not complete the turn...Unless all you have is coaxial heli experience...Or count on extensive mixing which is a baaaad crutch to lean on for other than a beginner...

For your first plane I have to say that you've bitten off quite a big chunk...This plane is far from a beginners plane and goes only where you point it...No self recovery at all and not forgiving...I would fly it stock before making any mods---Not that this plane needs them other than the stengthening mods to the tail...

Kevin
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