There are a lot of conservative people in this hobby and people such as these simply will not accept anything new even if it is a means for improvement. It's just their nature.
Even when you provide the evidence of the success of your method these people will reject it as it does not fit in with the mindset. It is a long row to hoe and sometimes one never gets it finished. Just consider all those flyers who have never accepted iron-on covering. They consider it nearly blasphemy, after all real planes are covered with silk and dope. Some consider planes with two wings and flying wires to be only real aircraft. Think about the attitude towards electrics: it's now divided into two camps, those who accept it and those who reject it entirely.
Many ideas die a long and painful death. Sometimes it takes decades to make any meaningful changes.
As far as your experience at the AMA event, I can only express my disappointment in people. But There you are.

Originally Posted by jollyroger

There are a lot of conservative people in this hobby and people such as these simply will not accept anything new even if it is a means for improvement. It's just their nature.
Even when you provide the evidence of the success of your method these people will reject it as it does not fit in with the mindset. It is a long row to hoe and sometimes one never gets it finished. Just consider all those flyers who have never accepted iron-on covering. They consider it nearly blasphemy, after all real planes are covered with silk and dope. Some consider planes with two wings and flying wires to be only real aircraft. Think about the attitude towards electrics: it's now divided into two camps, those who accept it and those who reject it entirely.
Many ideas die a long and painful death. Sometimes it takes decades to make any meaningful changes.
As far as your experience at the AMA event, I can only express my disappointment in people. But There you are.

Fortunately, lately, things are starting to turn around. Then there are those who feel that things are fine and dandy and have nothing to gain and maybe something to lose, are the same folks who feel the must maintain the status quo.
The profit end of the hobby/sport have had no choice but to take promotion advice from the non profit end, who are the average club member. Guess who is against anything that will threaten their control of their club? A classic case of the fox guarding the chicken coop.

Meanwhile, the profit oriented end has been losing collectively more than likely millions over the years and can't seem to put their finger on the reason why.
Everyone comes up with plausable reasons like: The economy, high club dues, high AMA dues, youth being distrated by other things, high product prices, etc.
Everything but the most logical cause of membership decline....clubs fear growth more than anything. What would be the best way to keep their numbers at a "comfortable" level? Do not provide readily available and quality flight instruction. I don't mean to paint all clubs with the same brush, so there are more than likely those who really desire growth, but the fact that giving flight instruction can be extremely stressful for some and not something a lot of people would like doing. I doubt if anyone truly loves sweating bullets teaching people to fly RC airplanes.

Fliers1

.
..... Do not provide readily available and quality flight instruction. I don't mean to paint all clubs with the same brush, so there are more than likely those who really desire growth, but the fact that giving flight instruction can be extremely stressful for some and not something a lot of people would like doing. I doubt if anyone truly loves sweating bullets teaching people to fly RC airplanes.

Fliers1[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's because some instructors are not that competent so they sweat it out each time they take a student up. If that is the case, then the club needs to find someone who is competent and comfortable teaching new students.
Maybe a training course for would- be instructors is what's needed along with an attitude adjustment. It sounds to me that the AMA is a good place to start. I won't even get started about the AMA organization and the people who run it but there needs to be a bit of tweaking and change of attitude there.
I wish I lived closer to you so you could teach me your method. However, since I live in Northern Michigan, you're a long drive away. How about making a video for instructors?

Originally Posted by jollyroger

.
..... Do not provide readily available and quality flight instruction. I don't mean to paint all clubs with the same brush, so there are more than likely those who really desire growth, but the fact that giving flight instruction can be extremely stressful for some and not something a lot of people would like doing. I doubt if anyone truly loves sweating bullets teaching people to fly RC airplanes.

Fliers1

Maybe it's because some instructors are not that competent so they sweat it out each time they take a student up. If that is the case, then the club needs to find someone who is competent and comfortable teaching new students.
Maybe a training course for would- be instructors is what's needed along with an attitude adjustment. It sounds to me that the AMA is a good place to start. I won't even get started about the AMA organization and the people who run it but there needs to be a bit of tweaking and change of attitude there.
I wish I lived closer to you so you could teach me your method. However, since I live in Northern Michigan, you're a long drive away. How about making a video for instructors?[/QUOTE]


I've giving that idea (video) a lot of thought, in fact, I've asked several people to help me with that, but for various reasons, it never got done.
Maybe it's far fetched, but I thought about members of the industry and AMA doing a professional job of doing a video of my teaching method. AMA had explained that they cannot "endorse" anyone's teaching method, so I gave up on asking them to help me, help them, although it's possible that recently, they may be having second thoughts in that direction, since nothing that's been done so far as growth efforts has panned out for them.

Although I don't like the idea of traveling, another route would be the industry or whoever is interested, could fund me going to clubs to demonstrate and teach others how to use my method. Since I've only given a couple of fliers, a rudimentary taste of teaching my method, I'm not all that sure how long it would take to actually train others how to learn it. Locally, until recently, for many years, no one showed any interest in my teaching them how easy giving flight training can be. Hopefully, this might be the year.

Fliers1

I wouldn't put much effort in trying to find someone in the industry who has the money to fund a training business. I think most people in the R/C industry are just doing their best just to stay afloat as it is.

Being that you developed and are the only one in the world who knows this training method, I would put a second mortgage on the house and borrow the money to start a few schools around the country or even publish a book. You can also go to www.kickstarter.com and see if you can get people to invest in your idea. There are always people who want to learn to fly but they don't want to take the normal 20-50 hour learning time. I would think that if people could learn to fly in a few minutes, they would be knocking down the door with fistfulls of cash.

Originally Posted by Skyshark01

I wouldn't put much effort in trying to find someone in the industry who has the money to fund a training business. I think most people in the R/C industry are just doing their best just to stay afloat as it is.

Being that you developed and are the only one in the world who knows this training method, I would put a second mortgage on the house and borrow the money to start a few schools around the country or even publish a book. You can also go to www.kickstarter.com and see if you can get people to invest in your idea. There are always people who want to learn to fly but they don't want to take the normal 20-50 hour learning time. I would think that if people could learn to fly in a few minutes, they would be knocking down the door with fistfulls of cash.

I ran a flight training school for several years and was quite busy all that time. All who came to me were from clubs that trained for free. I, again could easily make more than a thousand dollars a week, but that wasn't helping the hobby in general. I've said many times that clubs for the most part have a problem with growth, which is why no veteran fliers from clubs are "banging" down my doors. Since I closed my flight schooI, I am still turning down beginners who have been contacting me to train them.

If push came to shove and I really needed the money, I would start my flight school again. and once again make, as you say, fists full of cash. That is not what I'm trying to accomplish. If people came to me, I would teach them my method for free, but as I've said many, many times, those who already know how to fly have no interest in learning a much easier, faster, safer and fun why to teach. Those are the ones I'm trying to reach, and the hobby shop owners. It's not flight training that I'm proposing, it's giving hobby shop owners a means to increase sales of RC aircraft. Let the clubs handles flight training chores.




Fliers1

The problem for me as a hobby shop owner is that I can't take the necessary time away from my business every week in order to train people and our club doesn't have enough instructors. The best option for me is to sell them a flight simulator. In my opinion, that is the best thing that has happened to the hobby since the advent of proportional control.

I learned to fly about 20 years ago - before flight simulators were introduced. I played on Microsoft flight sim for a few months, then went to a buddy box. It took me about 10 hours of buddy box time in order to solo. I learned to fly helicopters about 3 years ago on the Realflight sim. It took me about 50 hours of flight sim time but I went right from the sim to flying a blade 400 without any problem at all. To date, I have never crashed a heli after learning on the sim!

I really think the simulator is the easiest and least expensive way for hobby shops to get people flying successfully. I simply take 5 minutes to teach people the basics and let them at it! It may take a little longer to learn but I have yet to see someone who has failed at it and I don't have to spend hours away from my business or rely on the local club to teach them.

Originally Posted by Skyshark01

The problem for me as a hobby shop owner is that I can't take the necessary time away from my business every week in order to train people and our club doesn't have enough instructors. The best option for me is to sell them a flight simulator. In my opinion, that is the best thing that has happened to the hobby since the advent of proportional control.

I learned to fly about 20 years ago - before flight simulators were introduced. I played on Microsoft flight sim for a few months, then went to a buddy box. It took me about 10 hours of buddy box time in order to solo. I learned to fly helicopters about 3 years ago on the Realflight sim. It took me about 50 hours of flight sim time but I went right from the sim to flying a blade 400 without any problem at all. To date, I have never crashed a heli after learning on the sim!

I really think the simulator is the easiest and least expensive way for hobby shops to get people flying successfully. I simply take 5 minutes to teach people the basics and let them at it! It may take a little longer to learn but I have yet to see someone who has failed at it and I don't have to spend hours away from my business or rely on the local club to teach them.

This is always where I run into to trouble trying to get my point across with those who learned with traditonal methods, ie, the buddy-box. Yes, I totally agree with you about simulators. I give people flight instruction during the winter on the simulator and sell quite a few of them. I tell them that I've been flying for over 40 years and will never out grow using the simulator. The more fliers, the more potential instructors, the more flying fields and clubs created. It's akin to planting seeds.

I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from. The last person I taught learned to fly on his own, without any sim time, within an hour. He now has 11 airplanes and asked me to teach him my teaching method. It only took less than an half hour and he now is very safely and competantly teaching others. You are thinking of the standard long and drawn out traditional learning curve.

Hypothetically, ff you were able or had an employee, friend or club member able to teach people to solo within an hour, or what I'm proposing, simply giving customers a 5-10 minute "test drive", to make a sale, wouldn't that help increase your business? Imagine if all clubs had instructors that could do the same? This is what I'm working on accomplishing. As they say, the longest journey starts with the first step.

I can guarantee that everyone I hand the tx to that they can land ( with minimal help) and solo within a couple of hours, more or less, total. I've been doing this for decades. As I said, I have no trouble at all attracting beginners and making a fist full of cash, it's the veteran flier old hand club members who has a problem with what they consider the inconvenience of too much growth on their flight line. That, club politics and fragile club instructor egos. For example, I gave a couple of demos for as many clubs and those club's instructors refused to even watch, let alone ask me to show them how it's done. What does that tell you?

Beginners desperately need what I have to offer. I'm just trying to get those with a bottom line to simply investigate what I'm trying to do for them. They are already spending big bucks for promotions and advertising, how much would cost them to send an email, or phone call to find out what I'm trying to do is worth their attention? Skeptics, cynics, pessimists and those with a self-serving agenda seem to influence those with a bottom line. How many in the industry is either a club member or takes their cues from non profit oriented club members?

The profit oriented industry, collectively sends hundreds of thousands of their customers to those who has to do all the voluntary work, the non profit oriented clubs. Those in the "trenches" realistically have much less to gain than the industry member. The club instructors have gotten the dirty end of the stick. They have the responsibilty of the students airplane. If the student's trainer should take a dirt nap, who may feel they have to replace that aircraft? Not the industry member who sees another possible sale. Hopefully, this may be the year that things will change for the best. All I need is the opportunity.

But, as I said, things are finally starting to get going in that direction. Seeing is believing.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.:"

--Albert Einstein

Fliers1

Clarence, I've got to say, you are one intelligent and inspirational dude! My kids have shown little to no interest in learning to fly. (Crazy, I know. Actually, my daughter has gotten a bit interested after playing with her Christmas gift--the Airswimmers Shark--very nice product).

After reading this, I now intend to try your method with them on the sim. (Knowing full well, that parents are undoubtedly the worst possible teachers for their own kids). I sure wish I lived close enough to introduce them to you.

I suspect that as smart as you are, you don't quite realize just how smart, talented and unique you really are. I have no doubt about your ability to teach anyone, but teaching is truly a special talent requiring unusual skills. I wonder if there are many people who can replicate what you do. I'm sure you'll find some though!

Please continue your efforts. This hobby, and this country sure need more people like you. Don't let the doubters and haters get you down.

Originally Posted by R Zielinski

Clarence, I've got to say, you are one intelligent and inspirational dude! My kids have shown little to no interest in learning to fly. (Crazy, I know. Actually, my daughter has gotten a bit interested after playing with her Christmas gift--the Airswimmers Shark--very nice product).

After reading this, I now intend to try your method with them on the sim. (Knowing full well, that parents are undoubtedly the worst possible teachers for their own kids). I sure wish I lived close enough to introduce them to you.

I suspect that as smart as you are, you don't quite realize just how smart, talented and unique you really are. I have no doubt about your ability to teach anyone, but teaching is truly a special talent requiring unusual skills. I wonder if there are many people who can replicate what you do. I'm sure you'll find some though!

Please continue your efforts. This hobby, and this country sure need more people like you. Don't let the doubters and haters get you down.

Thanks for the kudos. I have to say, that I'm not all that smart, just determined. lol

I'm finally getting the attention that I've been seeking for literally decades. Yes, I firmly believe that it will be easy for others to learnhow to do this. Problem has been that no one locally has shown any interest in learning a much more productive way to promote this hobby/sport.\

Here's the instructions. Just practice and be patient. http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/..._technique.htm

Take care,
Clarence
AMA Leader Member

Thanks for the link.

Regarding your teaching technique--
Do you have any strategy or preparation to help new pilots with the dreaded Left-Right disorientation that occurs as the plane rounds a turn towards the pilot? Do you explain this phenomenon to students before flying, or just deal with it by pushing the stick on their first "circuit" around the field? I know the trick of facing your body into the direction of flight, and looking over your shoulder as the plane comes at you, but that would be clumsy as you're standing side by side.

It took me a lot longer than 1 hour to get my brain wired to automatically and intuitively "switch" my rudder and aileron movements as the plane changed orientation to be coming at me. It then took many more hours to ingrain the "cross stick" rudder and aileron movements that are required when you're inverted. It seems to be a neurological "muscle memory" thing that requires repetition to become natural. I'm just wondering how you prepare students to work on building this neurological reflex BEFORE they spiral their plane into the ground their first turn back towards themselves on their first solo flight.

Originally Posted by R Zielinski

Thanks for the link.

Regarding your teaching technique--
Do you have any strategy or preparation to help new pilots with the dreaded Left-Right disorientation that occurs as the plane rounds a turn towards the pilot? Do you explain this phenomenon to students before flying, or just deal with it by pushing the stick on their first "circuit" around the field? I know the trick of facing your body into the direction of flight, and looking over your shoulder as the plane comes at you, but that would be clumsy as you're standing side by side.

It took me a lot longer than 1 hour to get my brain wired to automatically and intuitively "switch" my rudder and aileron movements as the plane changed orientation to be coming at me. It then took many more hours to ingrain the "cross stick" rudder and aileron movements that are required when you're inverted. It seems to be a neurological "muscle memory" thing that requires repetition to become natural. I'm just wondering how you prepare students to work on building this neurological reflex BEFORE they spiral their plane into the ground their first turn back towards themselves on their first solo flight.

Interestingly, I almost never have to even mention the subject of control reversal.
The only time any of my students have a problem, are the ones who have had previous instruction from someone else. I do make it a point to not even bring it up, that way, they won't have to think about it and all seem to have no problem with the plane coming towards them. I have everyone land on their very first lesson and that is with them facing the plane in the landing approach. It's just telling them to move the stick left and right, right from the get-go.

One can practice using my method at first with the buddy-cord attached and then reaching over with your finger and thumb underneath the student's thumb on top of the stick. That way, you can eventually wean yourself off of the buddy-box. By accident, that is the way I discovered my teaching method.

Mentally, you have to be ahead of the plane and ahead of the student.
Practice essentally mentally teaching yourself how to fly again. This is something that you can do anytime, with or without a transmitter in your hands. What I mean is, what does your brain tell your fingers to do? Do this step by step, then pass this information on to your student, step by step, throughout the entire flight. Obviously, this takes time and practice. Like I said, you can "dry" practice doing this anytime, all the time.

Please let me know how you're doing.

Take care,
Clarence
AMA Leader Member

Originally Posted by fliers1

Interestingly, I almost never have to even mention the subject of control reversal.
The only time any of my students have a problem, are the ones who have had previous instruction from someone else. I do make it a point to not even bring it up, that way, they won't have to think about it and all seem to have no problem with the plane coming towards them. I have everyone land on their very first lesson and that is with them facing the plane in the landing approach. It's just telling them to move the stick left and right, right from the get-go. .....................
.......................

Clarence
AMA Leader Member

Very interesting. I won't be able to try this for a couple weeks, but will let you know how it goes. Thanks for the tips.

Originally Posted by fliers1

Great idea, but for several reasons, I can't afford to travel, but if someone wants to come to me, I'll be glad train them. Locally, I finally have two fliers who actually asked me to show them how to teach this way. I've had a standing offer to do so for decades, but it seems no one wanted to be bothered.

Fliers1

I would love to travel from my country in Asia to be teached by you on how to teach other
As an LHS owner I think your idea is one of the best idea to increase the rc aeromodelling sales
Good instructor are so valuable that I need to go to another country to learn my ParaMotor skill and got flew after just 4days of training, while my local instructor plan to give me a 2weeks of paraglider first then upgrade to paramotor which I rejected because of the limited time
Different case but we got the idea that some instructors sometimes have no idea and theres 1 with genius idea out there

I use B P Hobbies & All E RC......

I will never buy from a out of the USA place.

B P H has a store & web site..........Not to difficult for them....20 miles away. Go there once in a while just to see stuff in person & get their advice. Any problems & we always find a fair solution for both of us.

Life is good.