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Old Apr 04, 2014, 08:02 PM
aka: Scott Ellis
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United States, MT, Billings
Joined Dec 2012
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Crack Turbo Beaver vs. uhm . . . an airplane?

Hello--

I've recently been flying a Twisted Hobbys Crack Turbo Beaver (a flat foamy, basically, though high-winged and big-wheeled). It is really, really good at doing some really amazing stuff, by which I mean all the usual 3D things and more--hovering, high-alpha, crazy-tight loops, etc, etc, etc. It is also incredibly good at surviving horribly violent, uhm, landings.

But what it doesn't do is fly worth a damn. Okay, so by "fly" I mean what the other plane I was flying this morning--a Telemaster 40--does. It glides. It settles into a particular attitude and stays there. It acts as if the wing is there for something besides aiming the motor.

My question: is a "better" (maybe I should just say "different"--my intention here is not to slam the Beaver, which I think is probably very good at being a flat foamy 3D airplane) 3D airplane (something like the 40" Addiction from Precision Aerobatics, maybe?) better at being a normal airplane when it's not busy doing crazy 3D? Or am I asking too much?
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Old Apr 04, 2014, 08:07 PM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
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I've seen these planes fly and if I wasn't so lazy I would build one. Everyone I know who has one loves it.

Just fly it to it's strengths. Fly it how it flies well.

Personally I use any foamy for a knock around plane and a training tool, or for just plain fun.
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Old Apr 04, 2014, 08:16 PM
This is NOT a TOY?
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Joined Jul 2011
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Never been too impressed with any small flat-surface foamy, for anything more than just having a dang blast playing around with them.
They're about as zero-pucker-factor as it can get... which I think is good for my sanity from time to time. I need to get me one of those

But if you want something that flies like a nice big balsa plane... yeah... just get a nice big balsa plane, of course.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 02:46 PM
They call me Dan
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Xeric,

You're asking too much.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 02:51 PM
aka: Scott Ellis
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United States, MT, Billings
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Originally Posted by sc4dr View Post
Xeric,

You're asking too much.
Well, probably. But let me add this: the Telemaster was probably a misleading comparison. I don't expect any 3D airplane to fly like "a big balsa plane" that will barely do a loop (though it is a great big beautiful loop when it happens). I was just wondering if something with an airfoil and streamlined surfaces flies better than a flat foamy. If so, how so? At least some glide, maybe? If not, then, well, why do those big beautiful balsa/carbon things exist?

It may be that 3D airplanes just aren't my thing. Flew the Beaver again this morning with, again, a decidedly mixed reaction.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Xeric View Post
Hello--

My question: is a "better" (maybe I should just say "different"--my intention here is not to slam the Beaver, which I think is probably very good at being a flat foamy 3D airplane) 3D airplane (something like the 40" Addiction from Precision Aerobatics, maybe?) better at being a normal airplane when it's not busy doing crazy 3D? Or am I asking too much?
Have you considered some the other EPP foamy planes with more true airfoils. They are somewhat larger. I have the flat winged Pitts and am finishing up the Beav' . but I also have the much larger Extravaganza with full airfoil waiting to be built to try that experience.

With an airfoil you don't have to have the nose high to fly quite as much as with the flat wing????
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 03:01 PM
This is NOT a TOY?
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Originally Posted by Xeric View Post
Well, probably. But let me add this: the Telemaster was probably a misleading comparison. I don't expect any 3D airplane to fly like "a big balsa plane" that will barely do a loop (though it is a great big beautiful loop when it happens). I was just wondering if something with an airfoil and streamlined surfaces flies better than a flat foamy. If so, how so? At least some glide, maybe? If not, then, well, why do those big beautiful balsa/carbon things exist?

It may be that 3D airplanes just aren't my thing. Flew the Beaver again this morning with, again, a decidedly mixed reaction.
If you ever have the chance, fly any of the current crop of 3D balsa planes.
Extreme Flight and 3DHS both have excellent offerings from 40-something inches on up to 126" or so.

"The bigger they are, the better they fly" is a statement loaded with truth in most cases, too.
However... even the smallest birds from one of the above do in fact 'sport fly' quite well, if do decide you're not really into 3D after all
3D Foamies are not a good representative sample of '3D Planes' in general, trust me.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 03:25 PM
aka: Scott Ellis
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United States, MT, Billings
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Originally Posted by C_Watkins View Post
If you ever have the chance, fly any of the current crop of 3D balsa planes.
Extreme Flight and 3DHS both have excellent offerings from 40-something inches on up to 126" or so.

"The bigger they are, the better they fly" is a statement loaded with truth in most cases, too.
However... even the smallest birds from one of the above do in fact 'sport fly' quite well, if do decide you're not really into 3D after all
3D Foamies are not a good representative sample of '3D Planes' in general, trust me.
Thank you! That's exactly what I was wondering. And hoping, I guess. If a "better" 3D plane will indeed fly like a decent sport plane if one wishes to and sets it up that way, that might be what I'm after. No matter what I do with this foamy's rates, etc, it is still never going to fly like, uh, anything but a couple of flat sheets of foam with a good power/weight ratio.

And again, I'm not slamming that whole concept, and I've already had some pretty good fun just beginning to learn how to do it (and have been through several whomping crashes--with no damage--that would have been hell on a built-up airplane). Was hoping that one plane might do more, and apparently it might!
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Xeric View Post
Well, probably. But let me add this: the Telemaster was probably a misleading comparison.
The Telemaster was designed to haul TV cables across mountain passes, gorges and such in Germany. As such, all it is supposed to do fly in a straight line and fight the pilot any time he tries to make it do otherwise. You don't fly a Telemaster. You stand there and watch it fly you, and then you turn it once in awhile. It's understandable that you found a super agile foamy to fly completely differently, especially one as capable as a Crack Beaver.

Quote:
I don't expect any 3D airplane to fly like "a big balsa plane" that will barely do a loop (though it is a great big beautiful loop when it happens).
A good 3D plane will do everything from post stall to wild tumbles and pin point precision.

Quote:
It may be that 3D airplanes just aren't my thing.
That's quite possible. The Telemaster has you used to flying a certain way and just about anything else is going to be totally different. If you go to something different, you are going to have to fly differently. This means getting out of your comfort zone, and in the beginning I did not want to do that either. Change is scary, but good changes become less scary more quickly.

If you want a 3D plane that really "flies", take any good 3D balsa plane and put a sport set up on it. Those end up being much better sport planes than even other dedicated sport planes.

I suggest you read the link below, and then after that, check out this video........

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Last edited by Doc Austin; Apr 05, 2014 at 03:40 PM.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 03:35 PM
aka: Scott Ellis
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United States, MT, Billings
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Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
The Telemaster was designed to haul TV cables across mountain passes, gorges and such in Germany. as such, all it is supposed to do fly in a straight line and fight the pilot any time he tries to make it do otherwise. You don't fly a Telemaster. You stand there and watch it fly you, and then you tunr it once in awhile.



A good 3D plane will do everything from post stall to wild tumbles and pin point precision.



That's quite possible. The Telemaster has you used to flying a certain way and just about anything else is going to be totally different. If you go to something different, you are going to have to fly differently. This means getting out of your comfort zone, and in the beginning I did not want to do that either.

If you want a 3D plane that really "flies", take any good 3D balsa plane and put a sport set up on it. Those end up being much better sport planes than even other dedicated sport planes.

I suggest you read the link below, and then after that, check out this video........

Again, the Telemaster was only intended as an example of an airplane that has a wing for a reason. I have other planes--some of them approaching "sport," anyway (a Corsair, say, which may be no Extra but does make the Tele look like a cable-tower). My question was really whether 3D planes like the one you linked fly any better than the (in some ways disappointing) flat foamy I've been flying does. I think we've established that that answer is "yes." Glad to hear it. Something new is in my future. Thanks for the links!
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Xeric View Post
My question was really whether 3D planes like the one you linked fly any better than the (in some ways disappointing) flat foamy I've been flying does.
I'm sorry. I misunderstood your question.

Yeah, sure ........ anything that is air foiled is going to fly better than something that isn't. There are even a lot of foamys that have air foiled wings and stabs and those are really sweet (if you like foam, that is). There are still some really good flat foamys (I have a Twisted 32" Edge that I just love), but I'm also a believer that real airplanes are made out of wood. Foam definitely has it's place, but I like balsa and always have.

Quote:
Glad to hear it. Something new is in my future. Thanks for the links!
I think if you keep flying the Beaver you will grow to like it too. It's just different from what you are used to. Like I say, they are pretty good planes and I want one for knocking around in my front yard at night.

I'm not sure where your flying skills are, but your best bet is always going to be getting a good grounding in basic aerobatics like rolls and loops, snaps and spins, and a bit of knife edge. Then if you want to get into 3D, that grounding really makes it easier.

The beauty of a really good 3D plane is that you can use it with a sport set up to get your basic aerobatics down at, and then move into 3D with the same plane by just changing the control set up and moving the battery back a bit. I've taken dozens of students and brought them up this way, and they have had great success with this method.

If you want to go that route, just follow the article to the letter and you can't go wrong.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 03:58 PM
aka: Scott Ellis
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United States, MT, Billings
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Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
I'm sorry. I misunderstood your question.

Yeah, sure ........ anything that is air foiled is going to fly better than something that isn't. There are even a lot of foamys that have air foiled wings and stabs and those are really sweet (if you like foam, that is). There are still some really good flat foamys (I have a Twisted 32" Edge that I just love), but I'm also a believer that real airplanes are made out of wood. Foam definitely has it's place, but I like balsa and always have.



I think if you keep flying the Beaver you will grow to like it too. It's just different from what you are used to. Like I say, they are pretty good planes and I want one for knocking around in my front yard at night.

I'm not sure where your flying skills are, but your best bet is always going to be getting a good grounding in basic aerobatics like rolls and loops, snaps and spins, and a bit of knife edge. Then if you want to get into 3D, that grounding really makes it easier.

The beauty of a really good 3D plane is that you can use it with a sport set up to get your basic aerobatics down at, and then move into 3D with the same plane by just changing the control set up and moving the battery back a bit. I've taken dozens of students and brought them up this way, and they have had great success with this method.

If you want to go that route, just follow the article to the letter and you can't go wrong.
I think that's a lot like the plan, Doc--thanks!
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 04:25 PM
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Send me a PM if you need any set up help, though the article is as thorough as I knew how to make it.
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 04:30 PM
aka: Scott Ellis
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United States, MT, Billings
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Send me a PM if you need any set up help, though the article is as thorough as I knew how to make it.
Just skimmed through it, and looks pretty thorough, indeed. But again, thank you!
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Old Apr 05, 2014, 04:37 PM
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3D planes are weird animals. They are airplanes that are designed to stall, stay stalled, and behave well when stalled. Look at the airfoil on a modern 3D plane...they are thin and sharp, to make them stall and stay stalled.

Early 3D planes had very thick wings and really they weren't very good for much more than hovering. When the wing started to come out of stall in a harrier, these planes would wing rock like crazy and be very unstable. It could be mitigated to some extent with really good geometry elsewhere on the plane, but honestly these things were a nightmare doing stuff we take for granted now.

Anyway, Chris and I designed the Crack Turbo Beaver to combine 3D foamy fun with bush style looks and all terrain capabilities. A harrier landing is a 3D maneuver but it's the ultimate form of bush flying. There's really nothing out there that the CTB can compare to. Just like any flat 3D foamy, it needs power to fly. The wing is designed to stall and stay stalled for stable 3D performance, which means that it has a high stall speed. Even though the Telemaster looks similar, its mission and flight characteristics are miles different. Chop the throttle on a CTB and give it some elevator and it will sink down, flat, with a very steep glide slope. Do this with a Telemaster and it will glide forever. In a way the Telemaster is much harder to fly because you need to manage energy and plan landings so much differently, whereas with the CTB, if you stop flying it, it stops flying.

Anyway, a good modern 3D airplane will have stall performance somewhere between the Telemaster and the CTB. When you chop the throttle it will glide. Not as well as the Telemaster but better than the CTB. They are designed to prioritize stability in stall over stall speed. To give you an idea of how these things compare, you could look at landing speeds/throttle settings. A Telemaster will land comfortably at 0% throttle. The CTB will land comfortably at 50% throttle (though if you are not crash landing it and/or dropping it in at full stall, you aren't flying it right ). A modern 3D plane will land comfortably at 25% throttle.

For your first wood 3D plane, I would recommend the 48" or 60" Edge EXP from EF. It's got generous wing area and has a gentle stall, but still flies well on the wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
Just fly it to it's strengths. Fly it how it flies well.
Very well said.
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