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Old Sep 06, 2012, 01:42 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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Gerry posed a great situation that deserves a reply but I can't because he "broke forum rules." Since it was me he was writing about and I didn't take offense, I can't imagine why anybody else would, especially since Gerry was talking about ideas, not people.

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Originally Posted by ny_hawk
Look, either as stated by RR they are the same or not.. IF they are the same, in effect roll the same, correct the same, but then now somehow again they are different? C'mon..already..

RR doesn't speak for me. Have you ever flown a plane like the multiplex easystar? If you have a simulator, try the easystar and then compare it to the twinstar 2 by the same company. Also, try the Radian v the Radian Pro.
There we go. I've never flown the easystar and the twinstar. I wonder if the sim is very accurate on portrayal of flying characteristics. But comparing the flying characteristics of the two planes is not valid because they are so different in design. The EasyStar is an elliptical dihedral 3 channel self-stabilizing design with a high rudder and the TwinStar has very little dihedral and a lower rudder profile. Of course they will fly differently and the difference will mask the answers to whether rudders and ailerons bank planes for different reasons.

Similarly, the Radian and Radian Pro, which so unfortunately share the same name, are not similar airplanes at all. They fly so differently that people "moving up" (I say it's nothing of the kind) from the Radian to the Radian Pro are surprisingly and to a surprisingly large number, not happy with how the Pro flies. Does it really fly worse? No, contest results show the Pro works about as well as the Radian, but it flies utterly differently. All the characteristics we loved in the Radian were GONE and we had to learn to fly a completely different beast.

Similarly, those whose first experience is the Pro get profound culture shock when flying a Radian. The only thing they have in common is the name.

My comments on ailerons, rudders and differential spoilers banking planes and doing it for the exact same reasons is a general comment. It could be verified by swapping wings with the same dihedral on the same airplane and flying it around. This would have to be a responsive 3-channel machine. You would find very little difference between flying it rudder/elevator and aileron/elevator. Dialing in 4 channels would allow a few things that you can't do on three channls, like cross controlling rudder and aileron to sideslip the plane for a crosswind landing, but almost all flying would be identical between the configurations.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 01:48 PM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
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Originally Posted by cwolfe View Post
OK I'll jump in. I built my trainer. A 35 "Herr Piper Cub. 3 ch. I don'y understand why people would put the rudder control on the right for 3 ch. When I did move to a 4 ch plane. I would use a little of all 3 to do flatter turns. as opposed to just " Bank and Yank". Aren't you supposed to use rudder for more scale turns? Don't get me wrong. I "Bank and Yank" all the time, but rudder is a huge factor when slipping in with a crosswind. I think putting the rudder control on the right (Mode 2) with a 3 ch model is just hampering your learning curve.
You put the rudder on the right because its the primary steering control, and that prevents you from learning the bad habit of turning with the rudder on a plane that isn't designed to be flown that way. These things are designed to work a certain way and putting the rudder on the left on 3 channel is denying the way the plane is supposed to be flown.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 01:59 PM
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United States, TX, Spring
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
You put the rudder on the right because its the primary steering control, and that prevents you from learning the bad habit of turning with the rudder on a plane that isn't designed to be flown that way. These things are designed to work a certain way and putting the rudder on the left on 3 channel is denying the way the plane is supposed to be flown.
Hmmm Jasmine. I value your opinion, but I disagree. If a plane is 3 ch trainer then it's supposed to be flown R/E only. It doesn't matter if its on the right or left. I think a worse habit is formed by having it on the right and then switching it to the left when you go 4 ch.

I see aileron corrections on landings all the time from fellow flyers that end badly. They should have used rudder correction that close to the ground, but since they learned all input on the right stick their thumbs dont know any better.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:07 PM
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United States, VA, Richmond
Joined Aug 2012
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I'd like to ask an honest newbie question. It seems to me self righting wings would be a hinderence to someone moving to straight wing 4 channel. If you are used to having to hold down the stick to keep a turn on something like a super cub wouldn't the transition to a 4 channel end up in a roll and disaster? It makes sense to me although I may be thinking about it wrong. Any thoughts?
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:21 PM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
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Originally Posted by cwolfe View Post
I see aileron corrections on landings all the time from fellow flyers that end badly. They should have used rudder correction that close to the ground, but since they learned all input on the right stick their thumbs dont know any better.
Sure, but you have the opposite problem if you learn with your primary steering control on the left stick. Also, I don't think the source of inappropriate banking on the approach is from learning with the rudder on the right - the source of that issue is nobody ever taught them the landing procedure. I see it all the time - instructors just let the student figure out how to land all by themselves. There is a landing procedure which can be taught, and almost nobody teaches it. That's the main source of bad landing technique - lack of teaching the correct technique.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Babadush View Post
I'd like to ask an honest newbie question. It seems to me self righting wings would be a hinderence to someone moving to straight wing 4 channel. If you are used to having to hold down the stick to keep a turn on something like a super cub wouldn't the transition to a 4 channel end up in a roll and disaster? It makes sense to me although I may be thinking about it wrong. Any thoughts?
It is a balancing act, like everything in aviation. We don't want students to roll the plane inverted with every control input they try to make, so we start them on a plane where the typical beginner inputs make sense and they won't be upside down all the time. When they learn to navigate a 3D space and deal with orientation changes, we quickly switch them to 4 channel planes so they don't learn bad habits. Ideally, we want to keep the student on the "safe" 3 channel plane for the minimum time possible - because yes it does teach bad habits. We have to balance that need for a self-stabilizing aircraft with the desire to teach proper technique, and there's no silver bullet for that. There is no perfect teaching method, and there is no perfect trainer aircraft, so everything we do has to be carefully balanced with the student's goals and abilities.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:25 PM
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What makes sense IMO is to keep things as consistent as possible to a standard configuration that all planes use.. The more you change when you "graduate" from whatever the "training configuration" is the less you have gained from it.

I still don't recall having to hold over the stick when turning when I was training although I don't know exactly how much dihedral there was in my plane.. I increased the amount of dihedral on the advice of the instructor on that trainer which was a Sig Kadet much like this one:

<============ Real Trainer

Within a very short time, maybe even my first flight, my instructor had me adding rudder into the aileron turns which clearly couldn't be done on a 3 channel. I enjoyed this plane very much although I was scared out of my mind the first time flying it since it took about forever and a week to build it.. In retrospect I don't think it needed any extra dihedral and if I was to do it over I would have built it with none to speak of.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:41 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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A lot of people learned to fly with that plane and the Goldberg Eaglet 50. They were the standout trainers of the time.

I think the eFlite Apprentice can hold its own against them any day. It's very similar in concept and execution with lower wing loading. But there's something about the appearance of a balsa/heatshrink plane that just can't be beat.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:49 PM
An itch?. Scratch build.
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South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
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So I learned to fly RC when all I had was single channel, rudder only. That's NO elevator, NO throttle, and NO ailerons.

Reference dihedral. I would love to see a few RC experts trim a free flight model that has no dihedral. Dihedral does have a very useful action.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:51 PM
Joined Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babadush View Post
I'd like to ask an honest newbie question. It seems to me self righting wings would be a hinderence to someone moving to straight wing 4 channel. If you are used to having to hold down the stick to keep a turn on something like a super cub wouldn't the transition to a 4 channel end up in a roll and disaster? It makes sense to me although I may be thinking about it wrong. Any thoughts?
You are correct that as the student transitions to more advanced aircraft that are neutrally stable, then the held aileron will disappear. However, this is a non-issue because the pilot should not be thinking about where the stick is relative to its center position, but rather, which way do I move it from where it is to get the effect that I am looking for. In other words, the roll is initiated and held until the plane gets close to the desired bank angle and then aileron is released until the roll stops. It is the same whether you stop at center or a little short of center (held). All of this while the elevator is being fed in to maintain altitude and pull around the turn.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 02:52 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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Essentially an excellent trainer is a free flight airplane trimmed properly with radio assist. That way you have complete faith that the plane can fly itself and you just help guide it around the sky at first. You're not making it fly.

And, believe it or not, with the more demanding planes that remains true. Free flight is a great way to start learning to fly!
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 03:07 PM
Joined Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by eflightray View Post
Dihedral does have a very useful action.
Absolutely! I don't suppose that anyone questioning dihedral has noticed that all low wing planes have it, and the vast majority of high wing too. In fact the ones that have none, like the Stiks are close to mid-wing aircraft.

A little off topic, I noticed a post on the forums that said that the transition from beginner to advance was high wing, mid-wing, low wing. That is incorrect. It is high, low, mid.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 03:08 PM
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I get what both are you are saying. That makes sense if someone has access to an instructor. For those that don't, being used to holding the stick in a turn I would think their natural reaction on a straight wing 4 channel would be to hold the stick through then turn and then they roll by accident and don't understand why.

This is all theory by the way. I have no actual proof it just popped in my head last night.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 03:18 PM
Joined Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by Babadush View Post
I get what both are you are saying. That makes sense if someone has access to an instructor. For those that don't, being used to holding the stick in a turn I would think their natural reaction on a straight wing 4 channel would be to hold the stick through then turn and then they roll by accident and don't understand why.

This is all theory by the way. I have no actual proof it just popped in my head last night.
As a thought experiment it does have value, but if the pilot sees that the aircraft is still rolling after they have decided to stop, then they should know to move the stick the other way. If they move it too much and the plane starts to roll out, then add some back. No big deal. Which is why that specific bit wouldn't even be recalled after the pilot has moved on to other aircraft. It is that little of a factor!
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 03:30 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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I can only speak for myself that transitioning from Radian/Slow Stick/Vapor to UM T-28 didn't pose a problem as long as I thought about what I was doing at first. I just reverted to the blip method, where control movements are a quick blip of the stick and letting it return to center.

So it's <blip>, banked far enough? No, blip it again, yes, leave it alone. Coming out of the bank <blip> is she level? No, blip it again, too far, blip it back, yes, leave it alone. It's not smooth but it works great.
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