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Old Oct 19, 2012, 09:37 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Solarcow -
Was talking of your project to LHS, and he suggested you look into multicopters as a platform. Apparently, this is where the future of FPV is going to be (according to him, anyway). I still have deep reservations about trying to actually pilot an F45 through a PC interface - if that is your ultimate plan?

Edit: the problems I see are 1) the 'bouncing' we've spoken of, and 2) if you're piloting at range - through a PC screen - and lose transmission for any reason, it could be very difficult to quickly relocate the heli visually (unless you're using a spotter). And if you're not piloting through the FPV, would seem no advantage over a highres camera.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 10:35 PM
Brent 黑雁
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Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
1,756 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
Original quote BThirsk -


As you know, the Trex FB was a very kind thought, but not my first choice.
However, when the dust settles a bit - and when (and if) I get reasonably competent with this CP, what next?
I really like the 450 size. Can see it a long way off, and it does already seem pretty immune to the local wind. The choice would seem to be between the Blade 450X, and the Align 450 plus DFC.
I'm told the best would be the Align with the BeastX - but obviously an expensive road to travel.
Any input appreciated!

PS - Only crash so far has been as a result of a feathering shaft bolt coming adrift (no thread locker). Even Align RTF can goof! (or really, the motto is - check EVERYTHING). $30 repairs, F45 would have laughed at the 4' drop!
Seeing you already have a 450 TREX, you might want the try something else when you're ready. Depending on the budget, there are lots of choices.
I have a HK600 and my buddy has the new HK550. Both are nice after you replace $150.00 worth of parts with Align pieces that are substandard. He is looking at a 700 goblin but I think he will wait till spring.
I was drooling over an 800 Mikado, but at almost $4000.00 US, I won't be getting that one until I can stand every Heli I got on it' s head and not crash.
The choices are endless.
I think what I really want next is a HK500 FBL torque tube because the size is just a little bigger than a 450 but not quite so cumbersome as the 600.
Did I give you some food for thought.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 11:20 PM
Cranky old fart
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Germantown, WI.
Joined Oct 2007
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Originally Posted by BThirsk View Post
I am a little confused. I though gyroscopic precession was the process of where the force(pitch) was applied related to where it actually affects flight as in if your forward elevator force was created at the extreme right point fo the rotor disc travel, the actual force would be exterted 90 degrees later, at the rear of the heli causing you to move forward.
You are not confused at all. You have described it perfectly. That is why the flybar is positioned 90 from the swashplate linkage and the head is positioned 90 from the flybar on a conventional flybar heli. However, you did not consider what happens too that flybar that's positioned 45 after the rotor head? Absolutely nothing! It is missed and won't be acted upon until the next cycle because it's "out of phase". So, it's always late and always out-of-phase. Mix that late out-of-phase condition in with your regular gyroscopic precession signal and you have effectively cut your movement in two. It's late and out-of-phase on every rotation, too.

This is also the reason 45 offset flybar helis have weights instead of paddles. Paddles would be pointed where the head was, not where it is. and would have even greater resistance to change. The original 45 offset flybar design positioned the flybar under the head. The companies that copied it moved the flybar above the head, to avoid patent infringement. The side effect of that is even greater flybar latency and more sluggish movement, or stability, depending on your interpretation.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 11:25 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
BThirsk -
You certainly have!
Can barely fly the 450, but after your pep talk it's all I can do to stop myself ordering this -
http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/goods.php?id=709
But sanity tells me I should follow the rest of your advice i.e., go FBL next. But the stepup to 500 certainly beckons . Thanks - as ever - for the ideas.
John
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
Solarcow -
Was talking of your project to LHS, and he suggested you look into multicopters as a platform. Apparently, this is where the future of FPV is going to be (according to him, anyway). I still have deep reservations about trying to actually pilot an F45 through a PC interface - if that is your ultimate plan?

Edit: the problems I see are 1) the 'bouncing' we've spoken of, and 2) if you're piloting at range - through a PC screen - and lose transmission for any reason, it could be very difficult to quickly relocate the heli visually (unless you're using a spotter). And if you're not piloting through the FPV, would seem no advantage over a highres camera.
I was planning to pilot it not beyond visual range, use the PC as a screen while still piloting with the radio. Im getting doubts about using the F45 too, the parts available here aren't the lightweight ones. Could your friend recommend a beginner quad? (One from a chinese brand like mjx would be great).

A quick search through online sellers gave me the impression that the only quads used for fpv are the really big ones. I don't think there is a quad roughly the size of an F45 used for fpv (except the parrot drone thing). Would 4 propellers mean it can carry more weight? The price of the fpv quads are equivalent to the 450 class helis or more, so I could step up to that once I've invested more into the hobby; but it doesn't seem suitable for a beginner.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 11:59 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Solarcow -
I just don't know.
But I've got to go to LHS Tuesday, so I'll try to get some more info for you then: or maybe someone on this thread might be able to help before then.
I was very keen on this concept myself: back in the day, I thought my F39 coax would have been a pretty good platform in calm conditions. Definitely could lift 50g, big, stable and cheap.
But the LHS guy knows more than I ever will (!) - as do many here.

PS - Here's a thought -
The whole nine yards, gtg
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...617963843.html

or the parent company, actually in China
http://www.hubsan.com/products/FPV/products_0101_1.htm
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BThirsk View Post
As arrowshooter said above. You must also get your blades straight and the flybar level after the heli is bound.
That will show a very close similation of where the guide is when the blades are spinning.
F45 swashplate problem (0 min 31 sec)



Hi i post a video to show you exactly what i mean . the swashplate problem make it crash after take off . I have no idea why

i think maybe i did connect the servo buckle wrong . Could some one upload a photo of original blade holder mechanic . THanks
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 08:57 AM
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The Netherlands, ZH, Rotterdam
Joined Aug 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noname2x View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwqVCBHW_1k


Hi i post a video to show you exactly what i mean . the swashplate problem make it crash after take off . I have no idea why

i think maybe i did connect the servo buckle wrong . Could some one upload a photo of original blade holder mechanic . THanks
The connectors are in the right place, but it looks to me that the back servo connector is too short, the rotorblades are not level, I think this heli is going backwards right now.

See the manual how to setup the swashplate http://www.mjxtoys.com/UploadFile/F45EN.pdf

Regards
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 09:37 AM
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United States, CA, Modesto
Joined Aug 2012
828 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by noname2x View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwqVCBHW_1k


Hi i post a video to show you exactly what i mean . the swashplate problem make it crash after take off . I have no idea why

i think maybe i did connect the servo buckle wrong . Could some one upload a photo of original blade holder mechanic . THanks
Here you go. You need to level your swash plate.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Here you go. You need to level your swash plate.
i did but it just do the same thing after the blade rotate
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 01:18 PM
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Joined Oct 2012
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Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
Solarcow -
I just don't know.
But I've got to go to LHS Tuesday, so I'll try to get some more info for you then: or maybe someone on this thread might be able to help before then.
I was very keen on this concept myself: back in the day, I thought my F39 coax would have been a pretty good platform in calm conditions. Definitely could lift 50g, big, stable and cheap.
But the LHS guy knows more than I ever will (!) - as do many here.

PS - Here's a thought -
The whole nine yards, gtg
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...617963843.html

or the parent company, actually in China
http://www.hubsan.com/products/FPV/products_0101_1.htm
I was hoping to go cheap as well as practice on electronics by going to F45+FPV route, but I guess Hubsan is the safer and better option.
For some reason I think they are export only. I cant find that specific model in chinese online stores. There was one selling a non-fpv invader on taobao though.

I tried researching quads a bit. The cheapest options seems to be to build a X400 quad and mount a lightweight fpv kit on it. No voltage problems since you can use a 11.1v batt for everything. You need a bit of tinkering to get it up and running properly though. It costs around double my F45 budget (not too bad, but I definitely need to save up more).

Edit: I was able to find some RTF Heli's that might interest some of you.
This one is available in taobao and costs ~500yuan.
http://www.junhangtoys.com/en/detail...e=H2051-CAMERA
It is co-axial, there is a youtube video of this and you can notice the random jerky rotations.

I saw another one that is fixed pitch:
http://www.junhangtoys.com/en/detail.asp?cpname=H2055-3
So far, I can't find a place that sells this or even a price estimate.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 04:04 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Solarcow -
Your links did seem interesting! - however, reading more carefully, the product does just SEEM to be a pretty standard coax (or 300ish FP) with a similar video cam to those we're using now.
The Hubsan I was keen on - despite offering real FPV in an integrated package - is really too small IMO to be a viable contender as an outside platform in any sort of wind. Plus is outside your budget, and not available in the CPR (maybe security reasons? - I remember a few months back one of our contributors ran into trouble with the police in Hawaii flying (with camera) over a nude beach(!)).
And the F45 might bounce around too much for FPV, despite Rexless's great video posted recently.
Why not revisit the idea of the big F39 Coax? It's cheap, stable, and would be very easy to learn. It could also easily handle your camera (plus a small 12v power source or DC converter) and would give you the involvement in electronics you were looking for.
That failing, think your X400 will be a fine choice. But I'll still bounce our ideas off my LHS r/c guru on Tuesday. If money were not a problem, of course -
http://bergenrc.com/eObserver.php
Only about $10k! Should buy two, so there's a spare handy .
Cheers
John.
PS - from my F39. The little dot at the bottom is me!
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 04:30 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
noname 2x -

Got to say, if you've levelled the swash, I can't see the problem at all. Would any more detailed pictures help?
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
noname 2x -

Got to say, if you've levelled the swash, I can't see the problem at all. Would any more detailed pictures help?
how to level it ? i 've regulated the swashplate like in the manual , but won't help . It still unbalance when rotate
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 06:07 PM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
noname2x -
I've tried to take a picture of a new F45 at the same angle as your original. Obviously, something IS different. But what?
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