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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:02 PM
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Pylon Racing on the Sim

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Originally Posted by MSelig View Post
Just for kicks -- flying without air?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0314c8NwxcM
WHAT FUN! I'll have to try it.

On another subject: Pylon racing.

I'd like to see a little more realistic simulation of a pylon racing circuit. I've recently gotten into EF1 (Electric Formula 1) racing using a two pylon course. The course has a 400 ft pylon separation with the pilot station 225 ft on the perpendicular from the centerline of the pylons. I've tried the pylon racing game included with the sim but find the far pylon almost impossible to see below the tree line and the pilot view right on top of the near pylon. The best practice course I've found is to fly around the utility poles on the "wireless" site!

It would be grand to use one of the airport pano or 3D sites that have wide open spaces so the pylons could be seen against the sky (as apposed to the trees or other background clutter) and yet not the sod farm where there are no ground references. Maybe the option to race on both a two pylon course or a Q500 three pylon style course where the pilot view is a lot different. (sorry if I'm not describing the courses very well. I'm a real newbee on the subject.) Check out this thread for the EF1 discussion. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178471

What y'all think?

Jack (diceco)
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Just found this thread. I've had this simulator for awhile, starting with the first version, and really have liked it. Anyone know if they're going to come out with more 3D/IMAC planes? I mainly just fly the H9 260 but would like something with more control surface like an Extreme Flight Extra.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceco View Post
WHAT FUN! I'll have to try it.

On another subject: Pylon racing.

I'd like to see a little more realistic simulation of a pylon racing circuit. I've recently gotten into EF1 (Electric Formula 1) racing using a two pylon course. The course has a 400 ft pylon separation with the pilot station 225 ft on the perpendicular from the centerline of the pylons. I've tried the pylon racing game included with the sim but find the far pylon almost impossible to see below the tree line and the pilot view right on top of the near pylon. The best practice course I've found is to fly around the utility poles on the "wireless" site!

It would be grand to use one of the airport pano or 3D sites that have wide open spaces so the pylons could be seen against the sky (as apposed to the trees or other background clutter) and yet not the sod farm where there are no ground references. Maybe the option to race on both a two pylon course or a Q500 three pylon style course where the pilot view is a lot different. (sorry if I'm not describing the courses very well. I'm a real newbee on the subject.) Check out this thread for the EF1 discussion. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178471

What y'all think?

Jack (diceco)
Jack, Might be doable. I looked up the draft rules from the link you have above. On page 4, they have the course. I'm not clear on where the pilots are. I've added a box in pic below in the center of the triangle. Is there where the pilots stand for EF1?
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlloyd1995 View Post
Just found this thread. I've had this simulator for awhile, starting with the first version, and really have liked it. Anyone know if they're going to come out with more 3D/IMAC planes? I mainly just fly the H9 260 but would like something with more control surface like an Extreme Flight Extra.
We've got a Slick in the works, which is probably pretty close.

I've been working on a tweaked H9 260. Let me know if you want to try it.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 07:07 PM
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Re Pylon Courses

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Originally Posted by MSelig View Post
Jack, Might be doable. I looked up the draft rules from the link you have above. On page 4, they have the course. I'm not clear on where the pilots are. I've added a box in pic below in the center of the triangle. Is there where the pilots stand for EF1?
Here is a sentence from the EF1 document explaining where the pilots/callers are located for the three pylon course: Pilots and callers shall stand within the course triangle behind the starting line during the race and shall stay within the course triangle until all airplanes have landed.

I would hope you'd be able to include a couple of options for the course layout. The triangular course and also the two pylon course.

The paragraph describing the two pylon course for EF! is:

D. Two-Pylon Course
1) The two-pylon course shall consist of two pylons placed 400’ (123 meters) apart.
2) Pylon #1 shall be at the right of the course and pylon #2 shall be at the left of the course.
3) Pilots and callers shall stand at the center of the two-poles displaced 225’ (70 meters) on a
perpendicular line from the line between the pylons.
4) The finish line shall be at the center of the two pylons along the perpendicular line from the line between the pylons.
5) The launch line shall be a diagonal line oriented at 45° to the racecourse centerline located at the finish line. The launch line shall be oriented to best address the wind direction at the time of the heat.


So, it seems on the three pylon course the pilots stand within the course triangle behind the start/finish line which is just within the triangle at it's base. This means the pilots must pivot around continuously in place in order to keep their eyes on the aircraft as it flies around the course.

For the two pylon course they stand half way between the pylons displaced sideways 225 ft. from the line between them. There is therefore not the requirement for the pilot to move orientation as the aircraft flies the course.

Thanks for considering this addition to the program.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceco View Post
Here is a sentence from the EF1 document explaining where the pilots/callers are located for the three pylon course: Pilots and callers shall stand within the course triangle behind the starting line during the race and shall stay within the course triangle until all airplanes have landed.

I would hope you'd be able to include a couple of options for the course layout. The triangular course and also the two pylon course.

The paragraph describing the two pylon course for EF! is:

D. Two-Pylon Course
1) The two-pylon course shall consist of two pylons placed 400’ (123 meters) apart.
2) Pylon #1 shall be at the right of the course and pylon #2 shall be at the left of the course.
3) Pilots and callers shall stand at the center of the two-poles displaced 225’ (70 meters) on a
perpendicular line from the line between the pylons.
4) The finish line shall be at the center of the two pylons along the perpendicular line from the line between the pylons.
5) The launch line shall be a diagonal line oriented at 45° to the racecourse centerline located at the finish line. The launch line shall be oriented to best address the wind direction at the time of the heat.


So, it seems on the three pylon course the pilots stand within the course triangle behind the start/finish line which is just within the triangle at it's base. This means the pilots must pivot around continuously in place in order to keep their eyes on the aircraft as it flies around the course.

For the two pylon course they stand half way between the pylons displaced sideways 225 ft. from the line between them. There is therefore not the requirement for the pilot to move orientation as the aircraft flies the course.

Thanks for considering this addition to the program.
Ok, I see what you're saying now about the 2-pylon case (and how that's not the 3-pylon case drawn in the draft rules). Got it.

For the 3-pylon case, is the drawing below how you would interpret it. I put a box on the base w/ arrow on it. Is this the pilot location for 3-pylon?

How doable/easy is unclear until I look at code. But I first want to make sure I've got the idea right. I will mention that we (one of us) recently did have a look-through of this part of the code ...
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 04:41 AM
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Re Pylon Racing

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Originally Posted by MSelig View Post
Ok, I see what you're saying now about the 2-pylon case (and how that's not the 3-pylon case drawn in the draft rules). Got it.

For the 3-pylon case, is the drawing below how you would interpret it. I put a box on the base w/ arrow on it. Is this the pilot location for 3-pylon?

How doable/easy is unclear until I look at code. But I first want to make sure I've got the idea right. I will mention that we (one of us) recently did have a look-through of this part of the code ...
You've got it depicted correctly.

I looked at some YouTube videos of Q500 racing using a triangular course. This one shows a pilot's eye view of a race.
Q500 RC Pylon Racing In Mullberry, Fl. (2 min 38 sec)
In this one you can see that it's an option for the pilots to displace themselves away from other pilots as long as they stay behind the S/F line and within the triangle.
Q500 Pylon Racing (4 min 27 sec)


I suppose a good place to put the pilot in a simulation of a three pylon course would be equidistant from the S/F line and a line formed by the base of the triangle and centered on a line formed by the midpoint of the base of the triangle and the apex.

Here is a video of an EF1 two pylon race. It's a little hard to see what's going on in the race because of the distortion of the fish eye lens but it shows the layout of the course and pilot positions.
Electric Formula 1 Two Pole Pylon Racing (3 min 8 sec)


Jack (diceco)
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSelig View Post
We've got a Slick in the works, which is probably pretty close.

I've been working on a tweaked H9 260. Let me know if you want to try it.
I'd love to try it. How's it different?
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceco View Post
You've got it depicted correctly.

I looked at some YouTube videos <snip>[/url]

Jack (diceco)
Thanks. These are good videos and I have a good picture of things. Now, we'll have to see how things are setup in code/files -- it's been along time since we thought about any mods to pylon racing. But again, someone here did take a casual tour through the pylon-racing code not too long ago ...
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlloyd1995 View Post
I'd love to try it. How's it different?
I'll bundle up the tweak and post the link. Might take me a few days. I'd like to see what you think. Difference is: I've added some new aero coding/data stuff ... which I think is 'playing well' w/ this airplane - roll but it feeds into most maneuvering. The recent Spitfire download already includes this tweak, i.e. again, it's an overall aero tweak.

Michael
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 04:11 PM
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Electric Formula One update

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceco View Post
<snip>

Here is a video of an EF1 two pylon race. It's a little hard to see what's going on in the race because of the distortion of the fish eye lens but it shows the layout of the course and pilot positions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcqBTPlO7P0

Jack (diceco)
Looking at pylon racing was a good idea here. I've added some EF1 courses. I can add more. Please let me know what you think.

The download link is this:
http://www.fsone.com/downloader_wp.p...ylonRacing.exe

Here's the update blurb: "Adds two-pylon and three-pylon race courses for Electric Forumla One pylon racing (EF1). These new courses are included with the Worthington County Airport panorama field. Also, selecting the "4 Pylon Race" with the Worthington County Airport panarama field uses a three-pylon course for F3D/F5D racing. For these race course setups, the pylons are 19-ft tall and are red/white All other pylon racing sites in FS One use 12-ft tall pylons and are orange/white. These pylons both meet the NMPRA Rule that the pylon height must be between 10 ft (~3 m) and 20 ft (~6 m)."

Michael
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSelig View Post
Looking at pylon racing was a good idea here. I've added some EF1 courses. I can add more. Please let me know what you think.

The download link is this:
http://www.fsone.com/downloader_wp.p...ylonRacing.exe

Here's the update blurb: "Adds two-pylon and three-pylon race courses for Electric Forumla One pylon racing (EF1). These new courses are included with the Worthington County Airport panorama field. Also, selecting the "4 Pylon Race" with the Worthington County Airport panarama field uses a three-pylon course for F3D/F5D racing. For these race course setups, the pylons are 19-ft tall and are red/white All other pylon racing sites in FS One use 12-ft tall pylons and are orange/white. These pylons both meet the NMPRA Rule that the pylon height must be between 10 ft (~3 m) and 20 ft (~6 m)."

Michael
This is terrific! The Worthington site is the best for this. Good pick!
Here are some thoughts:

1.The pilot views are good for the racing, just about what you'd see in the real race.

2.The aircraft start positions and start pilot views need to be moved.

a.For the three pylon courses the aircraft takes off directly away from the pilot toward the far pylon. The pilot view at the start should be directly toward the far pylon with the aircraft about 50 ft. in front of the pilot pointed directly away from the pilot. Assuming the pilot view that you are using currently is about 50 inside the baseline of the triangle that would put the aircraft on the S/F line as defined by the course layout rules ie. 100 ft. from the base of the triangle.

b.For the two pylon course the layout defines the S/F line to be a line perpendicular to the center line of the two pylons at it's midpoint. The take off position is in front of the pilot station (the pilot station is at the S/F line removed 225 ft. on the perpendicular from the pylons center line) at a 45 degree angle toward the first pylon which is to the right of the pilot station/view. I can't tell from the graphics of the current two pylon simulation if the pilot view is, in fact, 225 ft. from the pylon centerline but it should be. The aircraft take off position should be about 50 ft in front of the pilot view and pointed toward the first pylon, about 45 deg. to the right.

3.The simulation appears to finish the race at the last pylon turn of the race rather than the start/finish line defined by the course layout.

4.Pylon cuts:

a.The two pylon race seems not to be a round-the-pylon event but an "end boundary" event. It doesn't make a difference if you go around the pylons only that you pass the parallel lines perpendicular to the pylon's centerline. Is there a way to make the race an around the pylons event with the appropriate cut penalties?

b.On the three pylon courses it seems the simulation is giving a cut if the A/C strays over the center line between the pylons the A/C is between. I'm not completely sure about this but I think a cut is given if the A/C flies to the inside of the pylon and never makes it around the outside of the pylon. If the A/C drifts over the centerline somewhere between them and then comes back on the desired course to make it around the pylon it is not deemed a cut.

5.Is there a way to reset the timer/game without having to escape and reload the entire game?

6.On the "4 pylon" (F3D/F5D) course the far pylon is very difficult to see, at least to these tired old eyes! It blends in with the background.

7.How are the "turn" and "ding" sounds programed? It seems like the "turn" is given before the A/C reaches the pylon. Is there a lead distance for the audible or am I just not perceiving the position of the A/C relative to pylon in the graphic correctly?

This is a bit of a list, for which I apologize, but it shows terrific promise. It will be great to do some pylon racing with my flying buddies during the cold winter months!

Cheers, Jack (diceco)
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 08:16 PM
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Jack, Thanks for the good feedback here. Lots to consider -- let me take a 'raincheck' on a complete reply. But in the meantime, I have made more changes and one of them improves the visibility of the distance first pylon (uses a pyramid now). Here's the release notes:
"Adds two-pylon and three-pylon race courses for Electric Formula One (EF1) pylon racing. These new courses are included with the Worthington County Airport and Omni panorama fields. Also, selecting the “4 Pylon Race” for these pano sites uses a three-pylon course for F3D/F5D pylon racing. For these race course setups, the pylons are 19-ft tall. To make it easier to see the complete course while racing, a pyramid pylon is used for the first pylon which is furthest away from the pilot. These 19-ft tall pylons meet the NMPRA Rule that the pylon height must be between 10 ft (~3 m) and 20 ft (~6 m).

Changes to other pylon racing courses include: more standard positions for pylons in 2-pylon and 3-pylon race courses. Frasca Airport flying site now includes 2-pylon and 3-pylon EF1 race course setups. The Harker Mountain slope site includes new distance pylons to make them more visible. Many pylons have been changed from orange/white to red/white to make them more visible. Also, pylons that were 12-ft tall before are now 19-ft tall to make them more visible. The pylon cut buzzer was changed to make it sound more realistic (less loud and tweaked)."
The new download link is:

http://www.fsone.com/downloader_wp.p...ylonRacing.exe

Michael
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 09:55 AM
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MSelig.....Thank you for responding to diceco on the EF1 pylon racing enhancements. I will be updating and giving this a try. I have one of these planes and do not have races in my area yet. This would be good practice. I hear that Tower may be releasing a plane to join the ones from Horizon and Nitro.
Richard
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:59 PM
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Update to the Extra 260 (35%-scale Hangar 9)

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Originally Posted by jlloyd1995 View Post
I'd love to try it. How's it different?
Ok, I've updated the Extra 260 (35%-scale Hangar 9) aero. The new setup is here:

http://www.fsone.com/downloader_wp.p...ra260-beta.exe

It will add into the airplane list as "Extra 260 (beta)".

The difference is this: I've added some new aero coding/data stuff which I think is 'playing well' w/ this airplane wrt roll handling, but it feeds into most maneuvering. Please let me know how you think it compares. The difference will be subtle I think.

This update is not part of the main V2.1.1 update, but it adds onto that. So you need V2.1.1 to run it.

Michael
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