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Old Nov 04, 2015, 05:23 PM
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The smartest 5s & 6s Mini racing quadcopter build!

I wanted to start a thread that compiled the current up-to-date skinny on building a high powered 250mm sized quadcopter. I am talking all of the "odd ones out" you find on the internet that achieve incredibly high speeds, using for example 30 amp ESC's and a 6s battery.


So far I've gathered that the ESC is a big deal, so I decided that the TBS Bulletproof 30A esc is the best because it supposedly comes from the factory calibrated. But what about the motors?

I've looked at motors and have found that, so far, the Tiger motors seem to be the popular "high end" option, but their descriptions do not say that they are compatible with 5 or 6s: only 2-4s.

That brings me to the PDB. can any old PDB such as the one on my arris speed x250 handle a 5-6s battery ?

Props: So far, I've concluded that, with respect to smaller propellers in the sub 5" range, bullnose triple prop (HQ props) seem to have the most thrust (more than 50-45 and 50-45 bull noses).

Frame: I have to consider a frame as it is the "from scratch approach" --- but what about a possible contender in the "ARF" category, which just so happens to be the perfect foundation? such as for example the QAV 250 or the immersionRC vortex, or on the lower end, say the ZMR250 or the arris 250 ARF builds. Maybe the storm drones from helipal? ( I currently have the new "storm" kylin 250 on the way with 5x40 BN triple props (HQ), I am doing to use a speed gun to test vertical and horizontal top speed rates on both the vortex and kylin storm edition using a 4s battery, if anybody is interested)

I'm normally part of the very large majority of forum viewers that..only view, so if there is something I am missing thread wise or something jumps out in your mind, I'm sorry in advance if this contains reposts.

For fun, I attached a photo of my vortex with the go pro hero on it.
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 06:04 PM
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From what I've seen, any ordinary 30-40amp esc wont do.
It has to be an esc that is known to not have any sync issues with the 30,000 plus rpm these setups have. The xrotor 40a, kiss30a, emax blheli40a, and dys sn40a have all been proven to not have sync issues.
A motor does not have to say it is rated for 6s... it just must be able to survive the heat and current. 2206 2000kv motors have been used on 6s with 5 inch props, but its best to go with a 2208 or a 2213 for the 6045s. Yes the triples have more thrust and acceleration, but it actually wont be as fast as the regular two blade.

That vortex looks really cute.
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 06:28 PM
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http://fpvlab.com/forums/showthread....-Vortex-6-cell
found this ^^ it's a brief thread about somebody who looks like he was able to upgrade his vortex to 6s by modifying only the ESC's

I found this on the vortex. And thank you! I would show you some of my other quadcopters but they look like mini frankensteins.
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 06:30 PM
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Karyi, how come despite higher thrust levels, the 2 - bladed props achieve higher speed?
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karyi View Post
From what I've seen, any ordinary 30-40amp esc wont do.
It has to be an esc that is known to not have any sync issues with the 30,000 plus rpm these setups have. The xrotor 40a, kiss30a, emax blheli40a, and dys sn40a have all been proven to not have sync issues.
A motor does not have to say it is rated for 6s... it just must be able to survive the heat and current. 2206 2000kv motors have been used on 6s with 5 inch props, but its best to go with a 2208 or a 2213 for the 6045s. Yes the triples have more thrust and acceleration, but it actually wont be as fast as the regular two blade.

That vortex looks really cute.

http://www.readymaderc.com/store/ind...oducts_id=4124

So far I am leaning towards this ESC because it's the smallest and lightest option with a 40 amp rating. it says: Opto: no bec....I am not sure what this means. I am not sure if my immersionrc vortex has this or not. Can anybody shed some light on this?
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Salvatorey1234 View Post
Karyi, how come despite higher thrust levels, the 2 - bladed props achieve higher speed?
I'm not a complete expert , but this is what I was told;
Its kinda weird, but top speed isn't just about thrust its also about ''pitch speed". Basically, the propeller with the highest pitch at the most rpm will deliver maximum speed and the third blade just ads drag and more noise.
The pitch speed is the maximum airspeed that the prop will continue to make thrust, past that speed the prop unloads and doesn't "push"anymore. A three blade prop will put more load on the motor and reduce the rpm thus, also reducing pitch speed.
The thrust is still important as this gives the craft the power to overcome aerodynamic drag to reach its eventual pitch speed.
This is why if a speed record is your goal a slim aerodynamic quad is most important, if not then just use any frame and accept that you most likely wont go any faster than 100mph(the absolute record is apparently 101 mph).
But don't get me wrong, the three blade props will sound and feel faster. So if you want to impress someone with quick acceleration and that awesome sound, go with the three blades.
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salvatorey1234 View Post
http://fpvlab.com/forums/showthread....-Vortex-6-cell
found this ^^ it's a brief thread about somebody who looks like he was able to upgrade his vortex to 6s by modifying only the ESC's
I've never actually seen a votex in the flesh, but I think his mod might have some difficulties.
First, those motors look like huge 2208's.
Second, the esc on the vortex are replaceable, but the signal and ground wires (small black and white ones) seem to be terminated with some kind of micro plug for direct connection to the power distribution board, so the aftermarket esc couldn't be directly soldered to the board.
Also vortex esc are meant to be placed in the arms, so the large 6s esc would have to be stuffed somewhere on the main body.
It could be done, but it I think it would be easier and less risky to find a similar frame without the integrated electronics.
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 11:17 PM
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I think you may be right. By the time it is all said and done, there's still a risk of the PBD failing as it tends to feeding all of the ESC's....at least i'm convinced somewhere within the board is a bottleneck which will be breached with 6s, 40amp esc and big props...so far,I've found this for the ideal frame:

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/produc...black-racer-32

I think this model is a good foundation for a really fast drone because you start off with a lot of goodies like GPS and there is no PDB, the ESC's function in the traditional way with BEC to flight controller (still new to this ). So in theory, I can just buy ESC's like these which you've recommended (i'm partial to their appearance!! although BLheli has a much lighter unit), no?

http://www.multiwiicopter.com/produc...all-connectors

On the same site that sells the scarab, they sell this carbon bird 40 amp ESC with :Max Speed: 210,000rpm for 2 Poles BLM, 70,000rpm for 6 poles BLM, 35,000rpm for 12 poles BLM.(BLM: BrushLess Motor), it has an xt60 connector which you can pair to the 6s battery with this:
http://www.myrcmart.com/xt60-power-d...cm-p-4730.html

Since those ESC's have opto out bec (ah, whatever!!!) you get a nice safe low voltage sent to the flight controller, which can go on to power everything else.

IF i'm correct then this design gets rid of 1. the ESC bottleneck (esc melts under too much power)

2. The PDB bottleneck (components of PDB failing under 6s power)



I am still fuzzy on how exactly I'm gonna put together the flight controller and fpv gear... I was hoping this scarab would take care of that for me...(and hopefully clean power to the camera)

just found this:http://www.multiwiicopter.com/produc...air-xt-200-amp
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 11:25 PM
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I read this will be needed for lowering voltage
http://www.multiwiicopter.com/products/scarab-ubec
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Old Nov 04, 2015, 11:34 PM
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24 amp motors (4 amps more than the 2208 cobras) at only 42g-- contender?

http://www.headsuphobby.com/Power-Up...otor-D-590.htm


I think the sunny skies are the better option after looking through t motors, cobras and out runners:http://www.buddyrc.com/sunnysky-x220...-motor-cw.html
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Old Nov 05, 2015, 12:36 AM
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If your new to building mini quads, a 6s racer is quite a big step, but I will help you as much as I can.

That scarab frame is okay, but since a 6s Li-Po is like two 3s LiPos stacked on top of each other, you would would need to mount it under the frame and land on the battery. A generic emax 250 could also work, but large frames like the blackout 330 are the only ones that will fit a 6s battery inside the frame. By the time you replace the motors, esc, and pdb, you would have built a totally new quad.

The carbon bird 40 amp esc looks like it could work, but the ONLY way I could guarantee it wont have sync issues would be proof of it handling high rpm motors on 6s.
I'm not saying that they wont work, I just don't know 100% like the name brands. Also, an OPTO esc does not not provide 5volts output to the flight controller. The Scarab uBEC(naza light pmu) should regulate the 22.5 volts for the flight controller though.

Avoid all cheap motors that look like the Power Up 370 (silver can/orangish gold top) they also have a collet prop adaptor which is really frustrating. The only reason it has a higher amp rating is because of the higher kv.

I have never seen a mini motor over 2300kv run on 6s, the 2700kv is jumping into territory that even the "best" pilots would not dare.
Sunnysky is a very good motor, but use the 2100kv or the sunnysky x2208 2000kv. If you willing to risk going with such a high kv, The x2208 2600kv(hard to find) might be stronger.
The best motor for speed would be the cobra cm2213 2000kv or 2217 2300kv... but those are very expensive.

Sorry for the long/delayed post
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Old Nov 05, 2015, 07:51 PM
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Thanks for the reply!

So it seems that a 2700kv motor, when paired with 22.2 volts, will spin at a speed of 59,000 RPM which seems to be higher than the run-of-the-mill escs's I'm seeing around the internet. Most seem to top out at 35,000. So i'm wondering if big props will keep the motor from spinning over the 35,000 mark, or whether there's an ESC with better timing for 16 stator motors...or are 8 stator motors an option? If they even exist for our builds!

With this in mind, a 4s at 2300kv will spin 34,000 rpm, so what happens to 2700KV on 4s with no props on it? That means it will be spinning faster than the timing of the ESC. This could have a negative effect on the ESC but I'm not sure what would happen.
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Old Nov 05, 2015, 08:33 PM
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Yes, most esc do say 35,000, but some seem to be able to take more and some are over-rated .
The prop will usually prevent the motor from losing sync because of the load on the motor.
A 2208 2000kv motor on 22.2v will spin at 44,000 rpm, but with a 6045 its reduced to something like 30,000rpm.
The stuttering associated with sync issues appear to only damage the motor so the only thing that will kill the esc is bringing it beyond its burst current or if it simply overheats.
Here are some examples:
The first video shows a success with emax esc and the second one shows sync issues(not sure on the brand though).
Although If I were building a 6s miniquad, the hobbywing xrotor 40a would be my first choice because those are the esc that RS2K uses.
Miniquad Monster Build - 6S ZMR MOTOR TEST (3 min 5 sec)

WP 20150210 015 (0 min 19 sec)
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Old Nov 06, 2015, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karyi View Post

That scarab frame is okay, but since a 6s Li-Po is like two 3s LiPos stacked on top of each other, you would would need to mount it under the frame and land on the battery.
Or just use a pair of 3S packs in series and stick them where ever you want (if you choose to do this please please research running packs in series in the battery sub-forum!)
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Old Nov 06, 2015, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karyi View Post
Yes, most esc do say 35,000, but some seem to be able to take more and some are over-rated .
The prop will usually prevent the motor from losing sync because of the load on the motor.
A 2208 2000kv motor on 22.2v will spin at 44,000 rpm, but with a 6045 its reduced to something like 30,000rpm.
The stuttering associated with sync issues appear to only damage the motor so the only thing that will kill the esc is bringing it beyond its burst current or if it simply overheats.
Here are some examples:
The first video shows a success with emax esc and the second one shows sync issues(not sure on the brand though).
Although If I were building a 6s miniquad, the hobbywing xrotor 40a would be my first choice because those are the esc that RS2K uses.
https://youtu.be/jsPzEmR6neU
https://youtu.be/SG4R8yXeS4Y
What motors did you test? Also, any numbers to go along with these test? Current? thrust?
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