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Old Oct 11, 2014, 02:48 AM
Thailand
Joined Aug 2010
521 Posts
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How much throw/expo/rates

I have been flying for years but I have just ordered my first 3D model.
I would like to know if anyone can give me some ideas on the throws etc
What sort of angle do the control surfaces need to go to ?
How much Expo is required, 50% or more ?
Do you 3D guys use rates or are you on full throw all the time. ?
I was thinking about putting all the rates on one switch so I can fly normally and then flick the switch for 3D.
Are these flight stabilisation things worth having ?
Sorry for all the questions.
Thanks in advance, Jim
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Old Oct 11, 2014, 02:37 PM
wrecklessly misspeling stuff..
tuck's Avatar
United States, CA, Citrus Heights
Joined Feb 2009
989 Posts
Jim,
Expo and rates are a personal preference.
Ideal 3d throws are 45 degrees or more on elevator. Rudder throw, would be as much as possible with out touching the elevator when at full deflection. Aileron throw would be as fast as you can comfortably handle. the roll rate. Honestly if this is your first 3D air frame I would recommend setting it up with very conservative sport rates until you know the planes characteristics then bump up the throws until you feel it is right.

Expo is tricky to advise on. some guys like it near 70% some 30%. Also JR/spectrum use positive values for expo, where Futaba uses negative values. I go back and forth on my own expo preferences. I would say that if you find that you feel the need for more expo for 3d rates, try backing down the throw without adding more expo, as well as experimenting with expo.

I like to have dual rates at least set up, but rarely change between them. I fly mostly on high rates. how ever I find my self backing the throws to a lesser amount as I get used to a plane. which is the opposite way to do it.
Take your time and figure out what you like.
Zeb
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Last edited by tuck; Oct 11, 2014 at 02:58 PM.
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Old Oct 11, 2014, 02:39 PM
I'm not lost, they are
pullup!'s Avatar
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Joined Jan 2005
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As much throw you can get without binding and a lot of expo, upwards of 70+ percent on some planes.

I run triple rates but just fly on high rates the whole time take off to landing.

Baby steps until you get a feel for it then off ya go!

At least this is what I do
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Old Oct 11, 2014, 02:48 PM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
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USA, FL, Largo
Joined Dec 2005
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Usually, the best bet is to follow the manual.
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Old Oct 11, 2014, 08:05 PM
Thailand
Joined Aug 2010
521 Posts
Thanks guy, that's a good starting point.
Max throws and loads of Expo plus rates is the thing then.
The model is from Hobbyking so I'm assuming there will not be much in the way of a manual for setting up 3D.
The model has not arrived yet so I may be surprised??
I live in Thailand so there is not much expertise here or choice of models, but I can nearly fly 365 days a year which I do. Not in the middle of the day though, too hot.
One more question, do you run a rearward CG ?
Thanks, Jim
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Old Oct 11, 2014, 10:30 PM
wrecklessly misspeling stuff..
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neutral cg.
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 01:01 AM
Thailand
Joined Aug 2010
521 Posts
Thanks, Jim
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 03:58 AM
The Best or Nothing
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United States, IN, Fort Wayne
Joined Feb 2008
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Follow the manual. I start with 50%. And I run triple rates. The only time I swith to low is when I need a precise landing.

And save your money with gyros. It'll never give you a true feel of your aircraft. It can cover up setup errors and can even work against you in some advanced manuvers. Invest in more batteries or top quality servos.

I hope that helps.
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 04:52 AM
A geriatric flier
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Australia, NSW, Braidwood
Joined Nov 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
Usually, the best bet is to follow the manual.
I respect Doc's ability to fly but I would never follow the manual. I do not know where they get their numbers from but they generally are way too high to start with unless you are a top pilot.

I would suggest you set up your low rates to throws you would normally have as low rates on a "normal" plane and slowly build up from there. As others have said it is a preference thing. It's not like you will take off and immediately start flying 3D. Not only this but if you have never tried 3D moves before you are more likely going to deck the plane. If, as you have said, you have flown for years you must already have a good idea what is OK to start with. How many times have you watched someone maiden a plane and thought that the rates are way too high as you see the pilot fight to keep the plane from becoming a pile of rubbish.
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 10:46 AM
TEAM EXTREME FLIGHT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watdazit View Post
I respect Doc's ability to fly but I would never follow the manual. I do not know where they get their numbers from but they generally are way too high to start with unless you are a top pilot.
Thanks, I think!

Sadly with Scott Stoops' book now out of print, there is not a good place for new pilots to go to learn about 3D. Forums could be a good tool, but there is so much conflicting advise that a new guy can get swamped.

As always, your best bet (as I say in the article) is to get the best 3D pilot you can find to help you along. The best advice I personally have is The New Sport Pilot's Guide To 3D

A good manual will usually have a recommended low rate. That's what you use to feel the plane out, and only go to high once you have some confidence (and altitude!). When you get a lot of 3D experience, you will even trim out your new planes on high rates because that is where you will be most comfortable. I bring a lot of guys into 3D, and once they get to like that high rate I have a hell of a time getting them to go to low and work their precision. When you know how to use it, the big throw gives you so much security that you hate to give it up.

You will notice the high rate throws might be seem massive, but so are the recommended exponential settings. High expo makes the plane feel a lot like a sport plane when you are just flying around (even with big throws), and very lively when you move the sticks a lot. Everyone likes something different, which is why a good computer radio affords you expo and travel adjustments in 1% increments.

You can get into several problems when starting 3D, especially with set up. First, you can set it up with too much throw, and even experienced pilots struggle with that. If, especially as a new 3D pilot, if you have big throw and not enough expo, it would be hard to come up with a bigger nightmare.

Better, but still bad, is not enough throw. In the beginning I was afraid to use enough throw and I did not have enough control to fly the plane past the stall. If you are falling out of hovers or harriers with the stick buried and the plane going to other way, not enough throw could be your problem. This is what happened to me in the beginning because I was afraid to stand those control surfaces up.

People who start 3D without any help from experienced pilots tend to not use enough throw and try to creep up on it by adding it slowly. You can certainly do it that way (as did I), but you might not have enough control. Initially, after failing with not enough throw to do the job, I had to go with the full throws and big expo, and use my low rates for take off and landing. Eventually, once the big throws stopped scaring me, I threw my low rate away completely and flew on high all the time. In the past couple of years, though, I've gone back to using a low rate for my precision maneuvers, and that's really helped a lot with those.

If the big throws scare you, start with less, but be forewarned that might not be enough throw to fly 3D with. With the well respected brands, those companies put a lot of effort into getting a good set up. You might notice that Extreme Flight and 3DHS set ups are very similar, and both (at least the last time I checked) run very high expo numbers. This gives you a lively plane that is not overly agile until you start moving the sticks a lot. I believe this is what the new guys need, and why the respected companies call for their planes to be set up that way.

For those starting 3D, here is my best advice: The New Sport Pilot's Guide To 3D

That was a lot of writing, and I hope I did not add to the confusion. We seem to banter about with the set up talk so much that I keep repeating myself, so I plan to write a set up article once I get a few projects cleared out. I've get to build, fly and report on the new 60" Yak, and I also like the nice October weather for building up a few planes to replace what I have worn out or destroyed since last year!
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Last edited by Doc Austin; Oct 12, 2014 at 10:52 AM.
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 11:33 AM
Thailand
Joined Aug 2010
521 Posts
Hi, well thanks again for all the advice, can't wait to get the model.
As I said earlier it's from Hobbyking so the manual probably tells me nothing.
I ordered a 1400mm Sbach in foam which they say 3d's well but who knows.?
It's got servos and a motor/esc fitted but they're usually poor quality.
I just read that guide to 3d flying, very informative.
Jim
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 08:32 PM
Registered User
Sydney Australia
Joined Dec 2009
312 Posts
Hi Jim,

I have had that 1400mm foam Sbach from hobby king. It is a great model and lots of fun, and good bang for your buck.

But it really isn't a full 3D plane, its a great fun sports plane that you can throw about a lot, but precise manouvers, harriers and hovering are really not its strenghts.

For a cheap but high quality 3D plane from hobby king at a great price have a look at the 1300mm Slick (in orange or blue - same plane), it weights about half of what that 1400mm foam Sbach does, and that and it's huge control surfaces is what makes it (and not the foamy) a true 3D pane.

And if you can afford it get an Extreme Flight 48" EXP model, I have the Yak and LOVE IT! Chalk and chese to the foam Sbach and WAAAY easier to do 3D stuff with particularly if you are just learning 3D

Tips for your 1400mm Foamy;
1. tape the control surface hinge lines (gaps),
2. check the motor/motor mount is securely attached (most aren't)
3, Get some better servos for it (change after about 20 flights)
4 Buy some 15 min expoxy - it will become your best friend!
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 09:49 PM
Registered User
Joined May 2014
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Hello Jim,

I'm just a beginner (started flying in May) but here is my experience. On the first flight I use low rates until I get the feel for the plane. After 1 or 2 flights I usually switch to high rates with throws of 45% or more. Anything less will will not allow recovery for slow flight like harriers and hovers near the ground. For 3D set the CG at the rear most recommended location. Be prepared to move it back another 1/2 inch or more (rolling to inverted with minimal or no pitch change and she is set right for 3D). If CG is not aft enough harriers and hovers will be far more difficult.
Expo is personal, but I like 90% on all axis. This allows minimal stick movement for 3D but if you need maximal movement to recover you have it.
I have 10 planes now (all 3D types) and my favorite is the Hobbyking Reactor followed by the TH Crack Yak and Techone Yak54 900mm the Hobbyking EPP Pitts. I prefer the Reactor because it fly's nearly as well as the Yak 54 and it can survive almost any Harrier or hover type crash. It fly's super slow or extremely fast and has a super high roll rate. A great park flyer and 3D trainer. The larger planes of course are a bit more stable but a lot more fragile an crashes. The TH Crack Yak is great too, but not as stable in wind, and to me does not have the same quality of flight as the Reactor. All great planes though. Here is the Reactor from last week......

HK Reactor Low & Slow (5 min 16 sec)
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Old Oct 12, 2014, 09:56 PM
A geriatric flier
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Australia, NSW, Braidwood
Joined Nov 2008
885 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin View Post
Thanks, I think! ........................................ I've get to build, fly and report on the new 60" Yak, and I also like the nice October weather for building up a few planes to replace what I have worn out or destroyed since last year!
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Old Oct 13, 2014, 09:31 AM
Thailand
Joined Aug 2010
521 Posts
The Reactor looks good. I realise now that the Sbach may not be the best.
I will have to go with it for now though, thanks again everyone.
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