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Old Jan 17, 2013, 05:12 AM
WMD
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Bradford, UK
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Just a quick note on CAD files. If you don't like them, then ignore this post.

If you are hunting for CAD versions (by which I mean DWG format) of plans on Outerzone, there is a page that lists them all out and links to them - http://www.outerzone.co.uk/advanced/...t_cad_file.asp - all bar one of these I think is by hogal. The list will get longer over time as I upload more of them, thanks to hogal's kind generosity.

It is clear that hogal has spent an enormous amount of time restoring and posting vintage plans both here, and on Outerzone. A search on Outerzone for plans with credit to hogal shows a total of 152 plans. But... not only has he done all that work, he has now also gone the extra mile and is making all of his posted vintage plans available in 3 different formats, including an original scan - in order to keep everybody happy.

I frankly cannot understand why there is any discussion about this. Unless it takes the form of a torrent of gratitude.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 05:21 AM
Ad eos qui nesciunt crepitus
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United States, TN, Memphis
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Posting Plans

Here here !
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 05:39 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
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Couldn't agree more, Hogal's work and contribution to this thread is outstanding. I don't use CAD myself, but think that having the alternative versions available can only be a really good and positive thing in encouraging more building. And we should also remember that very many of the old plans, whilst full of "character" have inaccuracies in them, sometimes gross inaccuracies, either as originally drafted or due to the problems of copying over the years. I don't mind this, as I always carry out a series of checks before cutting wood, but it can be annoying.

Keep up the good work Al and Steve!
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 06:19 AM
So I'M meant to be in control?
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Ilkley, West Yorkshire, UK
Joined Nov 2008
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I too am in support of the CAD work done by Hogal. Although I haven't used any, my perception is that the original plan is a lovely thing and has much more character and attraction than the relatively sterile CAD version. But when it comes to building, I think I'd prefer to work from the CAD version where the straight lines are straight, and the wing panels etc are identical......
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 07:10 AM
Ad eos qui nesciunt crepitus
Old_Pilot's Avatar
United States, TN, Memphis
Joined Dec 2012
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The Swallow

All,

I'm going to try to build The Swallow, a 1940's 60" flying wing. After reviewing the plans, I noticed a "10 degree tip washout" reference......

My question is....is the washout accomplished by warping the wing (how ?), or by just building the trailing edge of the tip to "fake" the reduced angle of attack ?.......see plans.

I'm hoping for the latter.

One more thing......anyone know where the CG should be ?

Calm winds

O_P
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 07:40 AM
Edubarca
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Colombia, South America
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As long as plans are available both in CAD and the original scan, everything's fine, that's my opinion.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:16 AM
Reduce the drama...
rick.benjamin's Avatar
USA, OR, Damascus
Joined Apr 2004
4,044 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Pilot View Post
All,

I'm going to try to build The Swallow, a 1940's 60" flying wing. After reviewing the plans, I noticed a "10 degree tip washout" reference......

My question is....is the washout accomplished by warping the wing (how ?), or by just building the trailing edge of the tip to "fake" the reduced angle of attack ?.......see plans.

I'm hoping for the latter.

One more thing......anyone know where the CG should be ?

Calm winds

O_P
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1801
Aeromodeller July 1947
I don't see any cg on the plan.
Text says balance for flat glide.
Says washout by steaming.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:39 AM
Ad eos qui nesciunt crepitus
Old_Pilot's Avatar
United States, TN, Memphis
Joined Dec 2012
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Swallow Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick.benjamin View Post
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1801
Aeromodeller July 1947
I don't see any cg on the plan.
Text says balance for flat glide.
Says washout by steaming.


That's going to be a challenge.......Probably have to rename the bird "Corkscrew" after I get done......maybe the answer is to cover her in Monokote......but that would be a sellout
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:06 AM
Old Timer
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CARMICHAEL, CALIFORNIA USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln View Post
-
-Indoor Commercial Kit No.4 Lesson No. 4 Primary Model Airplane Cours Joe Ott
18 inch span as printed in April 1996 Airflow newsletter
.
My parents gave me the 4 step model airplane course for my birthday, 1938/9. The "Commercial" shown here is the same, but I am sure they were not Joe Ott kits. I'll try to locate my plan, I believe I still have it.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:34 AM
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United States, VA, Alexandria
Joined Sep 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Pilot View Post
All,

I'm going to try to build The Swallow, a 1940's 60" flying wing. After reviewing the plans, I noticed a "10 degree tip washout" reference......

My question is....is the washout accomplished by warping the wing (how ?), or by just building the trailing edge of the tip to "fake" the reduced angle of attack ?.......see plans.

I'm hoping for the latter.

One more thing......anyone know where the CG should be ?

Calm winds

O_P
See where the tow hooks are? I'd start about an inch back from there. Lots of good info on flying wings forums here, sorry, don't have exact thread, just do a search. Also, 10 degree wasout seems a lot, but building it in by raising trailing edge at tips is best, double check angles!
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:52 AM
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United Kingdom, Tonbridge
Joined Oct 2011
190 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Pilot View Post
All,

I'm going to try to build The Swallow, a 1940's 60" flying wing. After reviewing the plans, I noticed a "10 degree tip washout" reference......

My question is....is the washout accomplished by warping the wing (how ?), or by just building the trailing edge of the tip to "fake" the reduced angle of attack ?.......see plans.

O_P
O/P

I would tackle it by building in the washout during construction. A tapering building jig from 0" at the centre line to the requisite 10 at the tip. Now at the tip the chord is about 4" so I make the amount of washout required to be about 0.7"; the article talks about 1" blocks which is substantially more. The washout is incorporated to prevent tip stalling so, although it all seems rather academic, I would then tend towards the higher figure. The most important thing, however, is to ensure an equal amount is built into both wings, you can then adjust the elevons for best performance.

Al
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 02:01 PM
Culper Junior
eastern pa
Joined Feb 2007
2,220 Posts
I'd follow hogal's advice.

Although the structure is light enough to allow steaming, why go through the hassle when you can simply build in the washout and keep both tips more uniform.

Steaming also might run the risk of wrinkled tissue on the top where it is most noticed.

Just my 2 cents
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 03:36 PM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
Joined Sep 2007
4,778 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogal View Post
O/P

I would tackle it by building in the washout during construction. A tapering building jig from 0" at the centre line to the requisite 10 at the tip. Now at the tip the chord is about 4" so I make the amount of washout required to be about 0.7"; the article talks about 1" blocks which is substantially more. The washout is incorporated to prevent tip stalling so, although it all seems rather academic, I would then tend towards the higher figure. The most important thing, however, is to ensure an equal amount is built into both wings, you can then adjust the elevons for best performance.

Al
Sorry to disagree Al, but this being a tailless model the washout is not there to prevent tip stalling, it is there so that the model will have enough stability to fly! In other words, the washed-out wing tips are acting like a very short moment, high negative angle tailplane. As you say, it is important to get both wings equal and then fine pitch trim adjustments can be made by the adjustable elevons.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 04:10 PM
AMA 667982 KG7NKY
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Tucson, AZ, USA
Joined Sep 2000
2,003 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by WMD View Post
Just a quick note on CAD files. If you don't like them, then ignore this post.

If you are hunting for CAD versions (by which I mean DWG format) of plans on Outerzone, there is a page that lists them all out and links to them - http://www.outerzone.co.uk/advanced/...t_cad_file.asp - all bar one of these I think is by hogal. The list will get longer over time as I upload more of them, thanks to hogal's kind generosity.

It is clear that hogal has spent an enormous amount of time restoring and posting vintage plans both here, and on Outerzone. A search on Outerzone for plans with credit to hogal shows a total of 152 plans. But... not only has he done all that work, he has now also gone the extra mile and is making all of his posted vintage plans available in 3 different formats, including an original scan - in order to keep everybody happy.

I frankly cannot understand why there is any discussion about this. Unless it takes the form of a torrent of gratitude.
I also have a few in CAD format at www.starcadplans.net Just go to the CAD catagory.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:26 PM
CV-15 VB-16
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USA, TX, Friendswood
Joined Jul 2007
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...-Indoor Commercial Kit No.4 Lesson No. 4 Primary Model Airplane Cours Joe Ott 18 inch span as printed in April 1996 Airflow newsletter

Sorry about the zip files for the indoor commercial, but when I shrink the plan with the software I have, it gets a lot coarser. So the same apology applies to the ridiculous size. One of these days I'll have to get the right software.[/QUOTE]


Cleaned up the Indoor Commercial from lincoln's earlier post and created a PDF.
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