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Old Oct 23, 2014, 10:06 AM
Sink Stinks
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Orange County, CA
Joined Aug 2004
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Originally Posted by Tim Green View Post
With small quads - which I'm guessing you do not fly
I have three quads, so take another guess. One is a micro which I only fly indoors. I also have been flying helis of various sizes from micro to .90/700 size for a number of years along with a good amount of "regular" RC. Do I pass the minimum qualifications for voicing an opinion??

Quote:
- orientation is lost in a jiffy - they look like dark dinner plates up there in the sky - even with the legs being different colors - all the legs look dark against the sky, when they get further than a hundred feet or so.
And the loss of orientation is exactly why the FAA wants "eye on" only. There is no defined distance as it it changes based on the aircraft, conditions and your eyesight.

Quote:
FPV fixes the multicopter orientation problem. A quick glance at the display, shows which way you are pointed.
No argument there. But the FAA is more concerned about situational awareness and it is a losing battle to try to argue that without sense and avoid you know what is going on around you when you aircraft is BLOS.

Quote:
Quads are not airplanes - most have no visible front or back. LOS leaves you gasping for orientation sometimes - where FPV doesn't.

So, due to the above logic, I believe that FPV and LOS hybrid is the way to go - and that the FAA has it all wrong. Very wrong. FPV is a safety feature for multicopters, not a liability.
And until there is sense and avoid capabilities I think the FAA will continue to disagree with you. Sadly, theirs is the only opinion that matters.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 10:19 AM
Registered User
United States, CA, Sebastopol
Joined Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Which is why they require "eyes on" flying. You are not supposed to fly so far away that you cannot tell what the aircraft is doing.

And as far as FPV goes, until there is a sense and avoid technology I sincerely doubt the FAA or our friends to the north will allow FPV and/or BLOS flying.
The FAA will never allow our consumer grade "sense and avoid" electronics to have influence on their safety regulations.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 11:36 AM
Launch the drones ...
Ashtabula, OH USA
Joined May 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
I have three quads, so take another guess. One is a micro which I only fly indoors. I also have been flying helis of various sizes from micro to .90/700 size for a number of years along with a good amount of "regular" RC. Do I pass the minimum qualifications for voicing an opinion??



And the loss of orientation is exactly why the FAA wants "eye on" only. There is no defined distance as it it changes based on the aircraft, conditions and your eyesight.



No argument there. But the FAA is more concerned about situational awareness and it is a losing battle to try to argue that without sense and avoid you know what is going on around you when you aircraft is BLOS.



And until there is sense and avoid capabilities I think the FAA will continue to disagree with you. Sadly, theirs is the only opinion that matters.
Whew - lotta words there - and some dire FAA warnings - the simple fact is - flying a multi by LOS only, is more dangerous, than flying a multi with LOS and FPV.

Without the FPV, you are much more likely to lose orientation of your multi - cause - no one is going to want to fly their multis close enough that orientation can always be determined with the naked eye. And sometimes, even if you are trying, it gets away from you, and orientation is lost.

And you know that. And everyone here knows it.

What we do, without FPV - when we lose orientation flying LOS - is we fly in a straight line, while observing which way the dot in the sky goes - and determine orientation from that - hopefully - that straight line doesn't lead the quad away from you - making it even smaller. It happens.

What we do, with FPV - when we lose orientation flying LOS - we look into the display, yaw the quad towards home, and go. Then we look up into the sky, LOS again, and watch our baby coming back home.

You disagree - fine - I won't argue further. I made my point. I am sure, I am a safer multi pilot, flying both LOS and FPV. And obviously, I believe I can prove it.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 11:42 AM
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United States, CA, Sebastopol
Joined Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by Tim Green View Post
Whew - lotta words there - and some dire FAA warnings - the simple fact is - flying a multi by LOS only, is more dangerous, than flying a multi with LOS and FPV.

Without the FPV, you are much more likely to lose orientation of your multi - cause - no one is going to want to fly their multis close enough that orientation can always be determined with the naked eye. And sometimes, even if you are trying, it gets away from you, and orientation is lost.

And you know that. And everyone here knows it.

What we do, without FPV - when we lose orientation flying LOS - is we fly in a straight line, while observing which way the dot in the sky goes - and determine orientation from that - hopefully - that straight line doesn't lead the quad away from you - making it even smaller. It happens.

What we do, with FPV - when we lose orientation flying LOS - we look into the display, yaw the quad towards home, and go. Then we look up into the sky, LOS again, and watch our baby coming back home.

You disagree - fine - I won't argue further. I made my point. I am sure, I am a safer multi pilot, flying both LOS and FPV. And obviously, I believe I can prove it.
MR pilots have to learn to "fly the spec" like glider pilots. It becomes muscle memory... instant orientation depending on where the spec goes in response to stick movement. It becomes second nature.

I have guys at my club ask, "HOW can you see that far??" And, the answer is, I really can't in the usual sense. But it works.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 12:20 PM
Sink Stinks
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Orange County, CA
Joined Aug 2004
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Originally Posted by Tim Green View Post
You disagree - fine - I won't argue further. I made my point. I am sure, I am a safer multi pilot, flying both LOS and FPV. And obviously, I believe I can prove it.
Let me use fewer words then. I made no statement about what I believe. My only point is that the FAA does not agree and their opinion is the only one that counts.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 12:30 PM
Launch the drones ...
Ashtabula, OH USA
Joined May 1999
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post
MR pilots have to learn to "fly the spec" like glider pilots. It becomes muscle memory... instant orientation depending on where the spec goes in response to stick movement. It becomes second nature.

I have guys at my club ask, "HOW can you see that far??" And, the answer is, I really can't in the usual sense. But it works.
I have flown the spec, with many gliders. And also with Multis. But with multis, it is harder. I prefer the solid orientation data provided by FPV, when flying multis.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 12:35 PM
Launch the drones ...
Ashtabula, OH USA
Joined May 1999
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R View Post
Let me use fewer words then. I made no statement about what I believe. My only point is that the FAA does not agree and their opinion is the only one that counts.
Nope. My opinion matters more to me, than the FAA's. Their opinions are stupid, and politically based. They matter little to me, cept that I am disappointed in the governance.

Their friggin rules and fines matter though, unfortunately. Which is why I put my opinions on the matter forward, when the situation warrants it.

Sorry for my too many words comment.

Fly safe. Use both pairs of eyes ... The ones in your head, and the ones in your aircraft.
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Last edited by Tim Green; Oct 23, 2014 at 02:32 PM.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 12:41 PM
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United States, CA, Sebastopol
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Originally Posted by Tim Green View Post
Nope. My opinion matters more to me, than the FAA's. Their opinions are stupid, and politically based. They matter little to me, cept that I am disappointed in the governance.

Their friggin rules and fines matter though, unfortunately. Which is why I put my opinions on the matter forward, when the situation warrants it.

Sorry for my too many words comment.

Fly safe. Use both pairs of eyes ... Yours, and the ones in the aircraft.
Yes. Opinions matter little when someone else has the hammer.
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Old Oct 23, 2014, 10:38 PM
BEOWULF
North vancouver, B.C. Canada
Joined Apr 2008
18,592 Posts
Tim remember you fly small craft
Like walmart style fpv
Childrens craft fpv
And yes its understandably reasonabe they are very unlikely hazard to real planes or other people

But understand rcgroups and the world is filled with exponentially more than your groups of fpv guys who fly much larger craft

Look in the mirror and see in yourself larger craft have and are flown

And yes even small foam plames can fly well beyond los
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Old Yesterday, 03:00 AM
Launch the drones ...
Ashtabula, OH USA
Joined May 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David22 View Post
Tim remember you fly small craft
Like walmart style fpv
Childrens craft fpv
And yes its understandably reasonabe they are very unlikely hazard to real planes or other people

But understand rcgroups and the world is filled with exponentially more than your groups of fpv guys who fly much larger craft

Look in the mirror and see in yourself larger craft have and are flown

And yes even small foam plames can fly well beyond los
You are not for real, are you?
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Old Yesterday, 10:02 AM
Flying R/C since 1964
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United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Sep 2004
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NBAA take on the situation:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...d222974-1.html
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