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Old Dec 31, 2011, 12:39 PM
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"Prometheus" - a theoretical/fictious galeon.

Current situation:
During my researches about galeons from the end of the 16th century up to about 1650-1660 - basically including all european nations - I had stumbled across a very interesting problem:

Only the biggest ships of each time and nation are well documented, but little is known about the smaller units.

Right now I am thinking about building a galeon of about 500-600 metric tons - a frigate basically - at a scale of 1/20.
By now I have three different sets of plans of ships with two gundecks - 2nd rate therefore, but nothing in the range which is interesting for me.
A german one, one from the Netherlands and one english plan - but these ships are between 1000 and 1200 metric tons, which means they have twice as much displacement of what I want!

So right now it looks to me as if I would have to design the ship that I want by myself/on my own.

Today I have ordered several books via Amazon to get more datas:

"Architectura Navalis Mercatoria" - by Fredrik Henrik of Chapman
"The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860" - by James Lees
"The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast 1600-1720" - by R.C. Anderson.

If Iīm unable to find historic datas and plans of a ship in the desired range/age, I could be forced to build something fictious - this ship then would be christened by me as "Prometheus".

The reasons should be obvious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus
________________________

I had to start this new thread, because I didnīt get any answer in my other galeon buildlog yet:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=192
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 11:56 AM
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Please talk to me!

Is there no one in this forum familiar with these different styles in this first half of the 17th century? The Barock?

The frigate on the cataloge cover is more than 150-200 years later - far too late!
Thatīs Napoleon-time!
Why are there no early frigates documented???
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 04:55 PM
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Mid 1400's.
There are three examples that are well documented.
http://oceanmotion.org/html/backgrou...e1500.htm#nogo

then there are these,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravel

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/01G...%20History.htm

Google will turn up lots of examples of Caravelas and other ships used in the same times.
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 08:35 PM
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just something to look at...even though it might be of any use to you
http://www.sjohistoriska.se/en/Colle...nNet/Drawings/

http://www.all-model.com/
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Hanger View Post
Mid 1400's.
There are three examples that are well documented.
http://oceanmotion.org/html/backgrou...e1500.htm#nogo

then there are these,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravel

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/01G...%20History.htm

Google will turn up lots of examples of Caravelas and other ships used in the same times.
@ Cliffhanger

Thank you very much for you suggestions!

But this is not what I am looking for.
Maybe you should re-read what I wrote.

I am trying to find examples of fully-rigged (three masted squaresail ships)
between 1600 and 1650 in the range of 500 to 600 metric tons displacement.

Basically frigates or armed merchantships with only one (closed) gundeck
(like the different East India Tradingcompanys for example)
from all possible nations, to be able to compare their styles, rigging and hullconstruction.

Most of them had a spitsailtopmast during that period -
like in the second picture in my 2nd post here.
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:42 AM
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Very Cool, Admiral!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yancovitch View Post
just something to look at...even though it might be of any use to you
http://www.sjohistoriska.se/en/Colle...nNet/Drawings/

http://www.all-model.com/
Now that is definitely of good use for me!

I had no idea, that all these linedrawings of Chapman can be found online.
As I have ordered his famous book "Architectura Navalis Mercatoria" allready,
I will have hardcopies of all these fascinating linedrawings soon.

Heīs 18th century, but anyway - thatīs a standard book for every serious shipmodeller!

Unfortunately these beautiful linedrawings of french ships of war at:
http://www.all-model.com are mostly 19th century.
But I also found that:
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 10:49 AM
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Disabled Post#5 - "But this is not what I am looking for.
Maybe you should re-read what I wrote."
-------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Cliff Hanger

Thank you for taking the time to try to help Mr. Disabled with his question. I'm sorry he chose to respond to your efforts as he did. Please understand that in the many years I've participated in rcgroups forums, I've found that the majority of people here do appreciate any help they can get. I hope you will continue to share your knowledge with the rest of us.

Note: I had other things to say about Disabled's response, but the Forum Moderators decided that they were not acceptable, and made me edit this post. So be it. "For evil to triumph, it is only necessary that good men say nothing." - Ben Franklin.


Sincerely,
Brooks Martin
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 11:59 AM
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i thought it was due to cultural differences or translation difficulties...but yes,..it really did sound somewhat arrogant...
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 12:05 PM
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??????????



Reported to moderator. Personal attack I donīt understand.

Arrogant? Me?
I asked politely for informations.

If I ask for beans and get carrots -
shouldnīt I then say:
"Sorry, but not what I wanted?"
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 01:12 PM
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Brooks,
A member asked for help. I responded with some suggestions. He responded as he did.

I did look at his first post and I do not see anything about fully rigged ships (which is any ship of any style with all equipment used to be underway.) as well there is no mention of square-sailed. By the way the Pinta is classified as a square-sailed caravel and caravels where popular up through the 1600s.

Then he responds with "Reported to moderator..." Sounds like the kid who says, "I'm taking my ball and going home."

I offered research links. If they were not of uses. Sorry. But I am in the US and you're in Europe. You asked for European ships. Seems you would have more access to information regarding European built ships. Might try the local museum. Or you could beings you have a computer, use google and start putting in some key words as I did.

Brooks, not to worry, I'm not offended. I don't plan to leave. I will offer suggestions to requests for help. I just won't respond for help by anyone that doesn't appreciate the time I put in doing what they could have done for themselves in the first place.

For everyone's information, I don't report any thing or any one to moderators. I'm an adult, I can choose to read or just ignore those I don't want or need to hear from.

Yancovitch, very nice source you linked to. I will never build this type of ship but I do like reading that sort of thing.

And to Disabled, Sorry it was not what you wanted.

Cliff Hanger
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 09:30 AM
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The Problem of proper Definitions:

1) This is a good example of a Caravel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravel

Main characteristics:
Two, three - sometimes even four lateen sails.
No forecastle.

2) Carack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrack
The forerunner of the galeons.

Main characteristics:
Three or four masts.
A lateen sail on the mizzen mast, main and fore mast square rigged.
Usually - but not allways - a spritsail on the bowsprit.

Main difference to Caravels and Galeons:
These ships all had forecastles which where even higher than the
aftward galleries or sterncastles.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 09:53 AM
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The Problem of proper Definitions - the Galeon:

The term "Galeon" fits for all ships like these -
no matter what size they where.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 10:25 AM
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The Problem of proper Definitions - the Frigate:

To complete the confusion:

Not every Galeon is a Frigate -
and not every Frigate can be called a Galeon.

But the "Red Lion" for example is a typical Galeon,
as well as a Frigate -
because of itīs size and armament.

Iīm not sure, when the term "Galeon" came out of use -
but the term "Frigate" is still in use in all modern Navys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate
http://blog.oup.com/2011/09/frigate/
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Old Jan 06, 2012, 06:21 AM
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The Problem of proper Definitions - The ideal Pirateship:

Edward Teach, called "Blackbeard" -
and his ship: "Queen Annīs Revenge" - 1718
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Old Jan 06, 2012, 06:37 AM
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The Problem of proper Definitions - the "Pinasship" or "Pinnace":

This is an excerpt from the book "The Pirate Ship" -
the discription for that "Pinasship":

"The Dutch 24-gun warship "Postilljon", from an engraving by van de Velde the Younger, c. 1660. Although the Dutch called this type of vessel a "pinasship" (pinnace), it was really a small, three-mast, square-rigged frigate. Her appearance would have been similar to some of the larger buccaneer or pirate vessels of the period, after their conversion to carry additional ordonance. (National Maritime Museum, London)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_rigged_pinnace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmar_Nyckel
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