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Old Sep 08, 2015, 10:05 AM
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Basic to advanced ground handling take-off's and landing for warbirds

Hey guys and gals it has become apparent that a thread is needed for all the great advice and questions regarding ground handling ..ie. taxi take off and landing ..

I have read tons of great advice and info in threads that just get lost and buried and only get read on being posted ..

Here is a place OF CALM ..CIVIL.. & FRIENDLY chat to help members and pilots share there skill and to help keep models operational ..

There is one main rule here ..

There shall be no personal attacks or disrespectfull posts to any other members ..we are all here to learn and get along .

BASIC TO ADVANCED GROUND HANDLING part 1 theory (14 min 48 sec)


Basic ground handling part 2 taking off practical (5 min 31 sec)



Happy posting
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Last edited by jiggz; Oct 01, 2015 at 01:44 PM. Reason: video part 1 .. working on part 2
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 10:16 AM
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Great. I suggest the title to include: "Take-offs, Landings, & ............. of warbirds."

Maybe a little more 'catchy' with those.
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 10:26 AM
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Thanx for the advice and first input gnats..done..
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 10:47 AM
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my advice on taildragger types especially foamy warbirds is spend a LOT of time driving them around on pavement using many battery packs learning to steer with the rudder.

paving of some sort makes the rudder input very responsive and it takes effort to taxi in straight lines. it also allows motor torque to happen well below stall speed allowing practice on correcting for p-factor at safe ground speed.

practicing on grass and dirt is ok but both grass and dirt dampen motor torque.

on my taildraggers i like as much elevator throw as i can get as holding up elevator is a key element of keeping the craft from nosing over on takeoff rollout.

on actual takeoff you dont just slam the throttle to the firewall and hope for the best. this is a pretty sure method of torque rolling left inverted into the ground.

on landing you want to practice your approaches and with some altitude determine what throttle setting for the particular craft allows it to descend in level to slightly nose up flight.

when your close to the ground i wait until the craft is 1/4 to one half of its wingspan from the runway to cut power and start flaring. just as its about to touch i chop throttle to zero. i continously add up elevator until the plane is in contact with the runway and bring full up elevator as it bleeds speed until i am holding full up elevator. this keeps it from nosing over.

holding up elevator takes concious effort as you see the plane is not vertical your mind is saying let up on the stick. thats really difficult.
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 10:55 AM
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Fantastic Thread!

With regards to scale flying...particularly the warbirds...the thing I see stumping most people is what I like to call "left stick skills" (if your flying mode 2) .

Basically...power and rudder.

These warbirds have a lot of power and big 3 or 4 bladed props...which creates a lot of P factor...which is essentially torque. That is what makes the planes fade...or cut hard depending on how much throttle and how quick its applied...to the left. Makes take offs and go around's interesting and causes loops to be off line...unless you are comfortable with the rudder. When the plane is going fast P factor has less affect, but if the plane is slow...or slowing...as in at the top of a loop...P factor effects the plane more. Getting comfortable using rudder and knowing when you'll have to is essential to flying these warbirds and key to faster ground handling....or take off.

These warbirds also have big control surfaces...particularly flaps. They also have big gear and gear doors...sometimes (as with the Corsair and Hellcat) they have front facing doors. It is important to realize how much drag that all produces and how much a dirty plane (gear/flaps down) slows down and how much power it takes to counter that. That is particularly the thing that seems to make landing these planes tough on some folks. The first time I landed one I was amazed at how much power I had to add to control my rate of descent on final...I was at like...half throttle...seemed like a lot, but that's what it took. I usually can start a combination of dropping power and flaring with elevator to get a smooth touchdown. These baby's can't be landed power off. That is a tough thing for a fella to wrap his head around that has only flew something like a Parkzone T-28 or something similar. Those planes can be landed power off...you can even flub the flare a couple of times and still get a smooth flare and touchdown without adding any power. If that's all a guy has experienced...then the power required for a 1400mm warbird or similar 1100mm will just feel unnatural, but its got to be used.

Just understanding these two parameters will help immensely, but if you want to learn fast...one thing I can suggest...as crazy as it sounds...try flying 3D. You don't have to get fabulous at it...just a feel for it will help. 3D is a discipline that requires constant throttle/rudder inputs. You will quickly get comfortable recognizing when you need to add power and no matter the situation...it won't feel weird or unnatural. You will be making rudder adjustments enough to make that much more natural for you too...you'll just find yourself making the adjustments automatically. My scale flying skills have improved a ton due to my 3D flying...I make adjustments faster and automatically and nothing feels strange to me anymore. If you can stay ahead...or hell...just barely behind an Edge 540...you'll be way ahead of a warbird.

Obviously flying 3D isn't a requirement, but it sure speeds up bettering the skills. If you decide to go that route...I suggest a profile from Twisted Hobbies as a first 3D plane...you'll develop the skills and they are really hard to break (and easily fixed if you do) and they don't cost an arm and a leg...so you won't be feeling that pressure.

Hope this helps and happy flying!

Adam
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 10:59 AM
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Happy to try n help. I'm primarily a 3d pilot, I also agree with Adams comments above about this. Harrier landings are a great way to learn the points raised above.

My experience has always been that I have much greater control (and grease it more often), if I land under power and use the throttle to control my decent rate, not the elevator. See the 3.35 mark on this vid as one example. I don't believe dead sticking is a good idea, I see too many people run out of airspeed and lift, then stall and drop for a bouncy landing, (sometimes incurring some considerable damage), though you can do it if you judge it correctly. I find it MUCH easier to use throttle. I fly off both grass and bitumen runways.

Take offs the key is to add throttle slowly, don't slam it open. This gives you time to make any rudder adjustments, and ensure you have a pretty straight line. (And helps you roll out and look a bit more scale). Long roll outs are also the reason I don't use flaps on take off, and I only ever use half flaps on landing, and though these planes don't really need flaps for landing, (especially if it's windy), it does help with your throttle authority regards decent rate and control.

Best tip I can give for taxiing is I always use full up elevator to help prevent nose-overs, and again a little throttle authority and big rudder throws for tight turns. Hope it helps.

FMS MUSTANG & MR RC SOUNDCARD Dec 14 (4 min 57 sec)
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 11:08 AM
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Hey jon I think we have all made the mistake of toping the throttle stick and watch the nose dig in ..broken prop blades and an ended sortie before the model even got rolling.

I to agree model should be pointed into the wind with a clear runway ahead and nobody standing to the sides of the take off path ..I have seen many models incl mine suddenly vear off track if a bump is encountered or a mistaken Rudd input..

On powering up for 90% of my tail draggers I hold full up elevator and get the model rolling from stand still using just enough throttle to keep the bird rolling then gently progressing the throttle and making sure the bird is tracking strait I release some pressure on the elev allowing the tail to come up and thereby allowing the tailplane to start flying ..I find its much easier to keep the model strait on the Rudd I find if I keep the tail planted for the entire roll out I end up using a lot more tail wheel correction ...

I like long long roll outs progressing up to about half throttle until the model reaches its rotation speed and allow it to want to get airborne rather then it being forced up. ..this way all torque roll is depleted and the model is alot more responsive on climbing out without the aggressive roll that needs countering ..
Jeff
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 11:26 AM
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Landings at the 2.30 and 5.10 marks. Taxiing after the 5.10 landing. Nice scale roll out take-off at the 2.50 min mark. Sometimes it will help to see/hear it for yourself.

FMS P51 Mustang Power Upgrade Demo HD (5 min 41 sec)
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 11:30 AM
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Fms zero landing at 3.30 mark.

FMS 1400mm ZERO MAIDEN HD (4 min 10 sec)
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 11:35 AM
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FW-190 landing at 2.40 mark. Not my best, but a good one to hear the throttle and down safe n sound without much drama. Hope these vids help a bit.

FMS FW-190 1400mm HD (3 min 27 sec)
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 12:16 PM
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Nice landings Shirty...

That's the goal...when "not your best" is that good...
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 12:17 PM
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Cheers Adam. A bit of "how not to". I know my mate Al won't mind me sharing his redtail maiden landing, (4.00 min mark). But it's a good example of using too much elevator and not enough throttle. Result was scuffed wing and broken retract. To be fair he is usually pretty good on landings, just a combination of a bit windy and maiden nerves I think.

FMS P51 REDTAIL MUSTANG MAIDEN June 2015 (4 min 58 sec)
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 12:42 PM
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Shirty I think we can cut ur pal some maiden slack ..its always a a very nervy experience landing a new model for the first time ..I find with a lot of vids I watch and from what I used to do is dead stick in and as the model sinks the natural reaction is to add elevator ..causing a balloon and scrubbing off even more speed which then creates a situation where the control surfaces need a lot more input to deflect the air ..he did well not to grab a hand full of throttle I have done that also ..panic pour on the coals and watch the torque roll put it spitefully into the deck ..
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 01:09 PM
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Yeah...we've all been there haven't we? Makes learning so worth while...much more fun to grease them than smack em'...cheaper too I've found.

I learned how expensive it can get years ago with a Top Flite P-51...those damn Robart's are pricey!

And balsa is a pain to repair.

I knocked mine clean up through the wing. It was so expensive and so much trouble to fix I was very motivated to learn how not to do that...
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Old Sep 08, 2015, 05:32 PM
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Take-off with flaps..?? Not advised

I was attempting to use a nearby recreational field in Ralson, NE. Decent baseball diamond with packed dirt and only a mile or so from my house, compared to nearly 20 to the club field. We had flown other things there but mostly powered gliders and some control line.

I had learned my Top Flite P-40 fairly well and how the flaps affected it, but not on take-off. Wanting to avoid some outlying rough ground, I elected to use partial flaps to get a shorter take-off run.

Up with the power from the K&B .61 and the old girl sped up, with a bit of the usual left turn tendency and hit some sort of grass clump. Up she rose but, alas, not fast enough air over the ailerons and over she went, cartwheeling and tearing up the fuselage. It would have been better to jump on the rudder but that didn't happen.

Moral: Flaps lift the airplane into flight prematurely and control is compromised to a dangerous extent. An unfortunate bounce and you might be building or buying new parts.
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