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Old Sep 14, 2002, 06:48 PM
Designing on the edge
Bengtson's Avatar
United States, OR, Portland
Joined Mar 2001
1,516 Posts
Free plans are going away

Hi all,
Bob Clemens informed me that there may be a copyright problem with some of the plans the I have posted on my web site. They are mostly many years old. I don't have time to examine each one and as a result, I am removing all plans as soon as possible. I expect that by Tuesday they will be removed. I can't get to the computer that has the files until then. I thought that there was no problem but now that the the issue is up they are suspect. In this day of litigation, I can 't take the chance of a problem so off they all go..

Kurt
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Old Sep 14, 2002, 10:54 PM
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Gerry Markgraf's Avatar
S. Calif
Joined Mar 2000
1,409 Posts
Sorry to hear that Kurt. I downloaded quite a few, but nowhere near all of them Guess I will have to get busy.
Gerry
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Old Sep 14, 2002, 11:31 PM
Always looking UP
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Lilburn, Georgia, USA
Joined Nov 2000
2,361 Posts
Sad it is

Its like someone gets a freeware plan, from sources wherever, the person makes copies, charges other people ONLY the cost to make the copies, then someone else gripes that it is not legal, or right.

IMO, if the plan is (and has been) freely distributed, and available to all, and the designers name is on the plan, whats the gripe?

You cant think we dont have the ability to scan a plan in a magazine, when they say, for the full size plan, see page XXX to order it? Several of your plans came from there, just delete the ones that werent readily available to any modelers? I can see that Cleveland would be upset, but the old MAN plans are worth saving for humanity

Anyways, I can agree for, and against, but if its that bad, I strongly suggest NO ONE print plans in magazines, or scan them into images, to post on the internet, because if 10 plans are freely available at 10 sites, why cant 10 plans be available at one site?

I personally thank you for your efforts to compile these plans, and though I only use such plans for reference, I can say that even though I may never get the opportunity to build but one or two of the plans you offered to us all, I have all of them

I also think that if you have had all these plans for so long, without any legal hassles, maybe Bob Clemens got you abit paranoid? Worst case scenario is a kindly submitted `Cease and Desist' notice to you, from one of the plan designers!

You did say copyright problems with SOME of the plans, right? If they are originals, and do not say copyright, all you can get is a cease and desist notice, but again, Thank you!
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:10 AM
Boffin
rpage53's Avatar
Victoria, BC, Canada
Joined Apr 2001
3,397 Posts
Re: Sad it is

Quote:
Originally posted by FANMAN
If they are originals, and do not say copyright, all you can get is a cease and desist notice, but again, Thank you!
Copyright is a right that must be waived. Unless it says something like "May be freely copied" there is a potential for legal problems. The free fullsize plans in Aviation Modeller International are subsequently available from them for a fee. So presumably you could be sued for loss of business, i.e. $$.

Electronic books have sorted this out fairly well. You should get permission from the author/creator in writing before distributing someone else's material. Especially in the litigious US.

Rick.
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 07:17 AM
Always looking UP
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Lilburn, Georgia, USA
Joined Nov 2000
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Re: Re: Sad it is

Quote:
Originally posted by rpage53

Copyright is a right that must be waived. Unless it says something like "May be freely copied" there is a potential for legal problems. The free fullsize plans in Aviation Modeller International are subsequently available from them for a fee. So presumably you could be sued for loss of business, i.e. $$.

Electronic books have sorted this out fairly well. You should get permission from the author/creator in writing before distributing someone else's material. Especially in the litigious US.

Rick.
I agree 100%, BUT, if the plan was from someone back in the 1950's, who is no longer alive, then you cant contact them. Also if the person cannot be located (which happens alot) shouldnt mean you cant allow others to access the plan. If a designer acknowledges that others might distribute their plan, they should have a means of contacting them, and a notice that its copyrighted, and that distribution is not permitted without exclusive consent.......

As I see it, Kurt is not giving away copyrighted material, The person who accesses his site, browses, and downloads the material is.....

My only argument in the entire matter is that you can go to a LIBRARY, find almost any material you want, go to the copy machine, press a button, and take with you what you want. To me Kurt has (had) a LIBRARY!
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 08:42 AM
Grand Poobah of Nothing
Trizza's Avatar
Once Australia, now Finland
Joined Feb 2001
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Kurt, sad to see these plans go away. Great reference material. I used to have the entire set, although looks like theres more now than there used to be. I'll have to nab a fresh set before it goes down.

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Old Sep 15, 2002, 10:56 AM
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Worcester, MA.
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Anyone have a link they could e-mail before Kurt shuts down the plans area? I wouldn't mind getting a look.
Dennis-
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:02 PM
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Des Moines Municipal, Iowa, United States
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Dennis - go up to Kurt's original post and click the box labeled "www" under his message.
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:14 PM
Heli Bouncer
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Joined Feb 2001
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This is troubling, enough so that I've decided that there is too much legal murkiness for me to offer my finalized free plan of the Bristol F2b that I scaled up and modified. It really bums me that we do this for the benifit of others and love of modeling, yet there is always some louse-up that can make a hassle out of it.

I'm sorry for you Kurt. I've got a few of those plans and want to convert some of them someday. At least we have you and Peter Rake bringing out great plans and kits that can be purchased...

A wiser and sadder

Looee
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:18 PM
Always looking UP
FANMAN's Avatar
Lilburn, Georgia, USA
Joined Nov 2000
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Again!

Quote:
Originally posted by Looooeeee!
This is troubling, enough so that I've decided that there is too much legal murkiness for me to offer my finalized free plan of the Bristol F2b that I scaled up and modified. It really bums me that we do this for the benifit of others and love of modeling, yet there is always some louse-up that can make a hassle out of it.

I'm sorry for you Kurt. I've got a few of those plans and want to convert some of them someday. At least we have you and Peter Rake bringing out great plans and kits that can be purchased...

A wiser and sadder

Looee
If you scaled it up and modified it enough, its yours, isnt it?
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:23 PM
Boffin
rpage53's Avatar
Victoria, BC, Canada
Joined Apr 2001
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Re: Re: Re: Sad it is

Quote:
Originally posted by FANMAN
My only argument in the entire matter is that you can go to a LIBRARY, find almost any material you want, go to the copy machine, press a button, and take with you what you want. To me Kurt has (had) a LIBRARY!
And do you think that is legal? In many cases, it is not.
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:28 PM
Designing on the edge
Bengtson's Avatar
United States, OR, Portland
Joined Mar 2001
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Here is the complete text from Mr. Clemens in response to my removing the plans.

To: "AerodromeRC Sales" <sales@AerodromeRC.com>
Subject: Copyright info


Kurt,


Thanks for the quick response.


First off, I am not a copyright policeman, nor am I an expert in
copyright law. I am a retired professional photographer who is concerned
about proper observance of copyright law. That is why I brought this
matter to your attention. I am also a dedicated aeromodeler, and have
observed that there is much misunderstanding among our community
regarding what plans can and cannot be offered freely on the Internet or
elsewhere.


Copyrighted material, which includes anything from Flying Models and
authors such as Tim Bucher, is the property of those companies or
individuals and only they have the legal authority to control their use
and distribution. Peter Rake was in error when he told you they were
"OK," whatever that meant.


Take Tim Bucher, for instance. He wrote and published the book, "Stick
and Tissue Modeler's Album #1," several years ago. It contained a number
of free flight plans, including one you have on your list, a 16"
rubber-powered model of the Bristol Brownie. Mr. Bucher offered, and is
still offering (along with a sequel), this book for sale. I believe we
can both agree that he would not be terribly happy to have his sales
diminished by someone giving his plans given away for free on the
Internet. These plans are his intellectual property, and only he can
determine their usage. No one else has this right UNLESS they have
received written permission from Mr. Bucher to do so. The same applies
to any plan offered by a magazine, such as Flying Models or Model
Aviation. Perhaps other individuals or publishers have plans on your
list as well. If so, your free distribution of them is also a violation
of copyright law.


A plan is copyrighted automatically the moment it is drawn. This
copyright is the sole property of the creator of that plan until and if
he chooses to make other arrangements, such as with a magazine. No
registration is required, but can be done through the U.S. Copyright
Office to insure full restitution of lost income should the copyright be
violated.


Many older plans are indeed freely available on the Net and elsewhere.
In these cases, the copyright owner might be deceased, not care, or be
long out of business (Comet, Megow, Burd, Berkley, etc.). Or the
copyright itself may have expired. The old copyright law specified a
28-year initial period with an option to renew for another 28. Doubtless
copyrights for the now-classic plans from the 1930's, 40's, 50's, and
60's were never enforced or renewed. Things are different now. The
current law, which took effect as of January 1, 1978, has a coverage
period equal to the life of the creator plus 50 years.


I hope you will share this message with Mr. Rake.


Regards,


Bob Clemens
Rochester, NY
"Bob Clemens" <robert.clemens@att.net>
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:29 PM
Heli Bouncer
Looooeeee!'s Avatar
At the Discount Clambake
Joined Feb 2001
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Fanman..


I doubt it, despite the fact that the plan was originally from the Plans Page and that they are offered as free for public use. But once you alter and use them just for yourself, I think you're fine, but when they become some sort of offer, even free, after your own modification...... I just don't know enough about where the public domain and private intellectual property begins and ends And it's not worth the bother of legal help to find out as I'm just offering it as a free plan, for others to use for their own personal use.

Looee
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:40 PM
Always looking UP
FANMAN's Avatar
Lilburn, Georgia, USA
Joined Nov 2000
2,361 Posts
Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad it is

Quote:
Originally posted by rpage53

And do you think that is legal? In many cases, it is not.
If I am a student in school, and I read up on a historical figure for a report, I will probably quote excerpts from the author, and show something of this persons work, in my report, did I violate a law? I did USE (notice USE) the information.

A newspaper takes audio and video of an event, as well as notes, so isn't all that information, the sole right of the person(s) or group that performed the action(s)??? Will I get paid, or be able to sue the media, because I did something that was televised, that everyone just had to see? If I didnt want anyone to see it, thats just TOO bad, right?

This does get deep you know, freedom of speech, means I can say exactly what someone else said, in private, among friends, or in public, AS LONG AS I dont profit from it, thats the bottom line, isnt it? Profit, and monetary gain?

If you buy a plan, and offer it for free or money, you need to get kicked, but if you got it free, and thousands of others got it free, why cant you list it?

Sorry to have replied so much, I guess I'll chill out and be quiet now
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Old Sep 15, 2002, 12:52 PM
Leave me alone!
Martin Hunter's Avatar
Kamloops, BC, Canada
Joined Feb 2002
15,106 Posts
Aye-yai-yai! Hobby politics rears its ugly head even in the realm of scratch building. I'll get busy downloading

Martin
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