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Old Jul 08, 2014, 10:41 PM
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United States, NV, Henderson
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I Need Help, Your Opinion Is Extremely Valuable




Hey guys, I need you to look closely at something,and tell me what you think. Above is a screen cap of the FancyFoam MX3 webpage. It is a description for the MX3. In the advertisement it states, ":The contest winning MX3 designed by RJ Gritter and Devin McGrath is now in kit form"

Then it goes on to say if you are looking for a contest plane it wont fail you, its available in a couple of different forms, and how you can use it for indoor routines and competitions.


So based on this description, one would think, you should get a copy of the MX3 air-frame that was used to win a competition ?

I wanted more clarification about this, so I contacted Mike, the owner of fancy foam. I asked a specific question. "What contest did the FF MX3 that you are selling win?"

Mike took time to answer, and he said this. "It has been used to win several contests but notably is the 2013 ETOC.
> Mike
> Fancyfoam
"

So I ask you, If spend almost $100 and buy this MX3 from FancyFoam, what would you expect to get?

I really appreciate your time in response. I am in a bit of a bind here, and I do not want to feel bad about what has happened.
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 08:22 AM
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United States, IL, Granite City
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I know what your saying but rj and those guys spend probably 100 or more hours on their planes and modifying them all the time. So you can't expect to get that exact plane and only spend like 20 hours or less on it. Also the amount of money they have on the carbon tube is ridiculous and if sold the tubes in the kit it would be a ton more money.
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 03:25 PM
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So it's ok to sell something different than advertised because of build times. I have almost 50 hours in my build as it is. As far as the CF tubing, all they need to say is,this plane do was not come with CF. You need to buy your own, because it is too expensive to offer in a kit.

Saying you are selling the same airframe that won't the 2013 ETOC and ship some sort of revised edition is a total deception. This plane he is selling never won an event. It was never flown in completion by RJ or Devin. Again, Mike made up stuff to get people to buy this plane.

If he would of been honest from the start, and said this is a revised edition, a modified replica, or something else to tell the truth that this plane is a copy, this would be fine. I would not of given him my money and wasted all of my time.

I feel deceived and even if he offered a refund, this will not make up for my lost time. This is a total mess, all based on lies.
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 06:04 PM
I don't want to "Switch Now"
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Toronto (Don Mills), Canada
Joined Dec 2002
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FWIW, if you want the two commercially available models that are closest to what the designer actually flies then I would suggest the Arrow V6 for freestyle and the Elanor 2014 for F3P.

That is not to say the your MX3 would not be a great flying model, I am sure it will be.
But as you say the ones flown in competition by the designer were prototypes or one-offs, and changes were made.

Donatas flies the Arrow built from the kit, and the Elanor can be built to the correct weight right out of the box.

Same thing can't be said for the Spies for example, Donatas flies a completely different one, and the designer another again.
The kit is an excellent model, but it is not the same as either one in many respects.

Another model that can be built from the kit the same as the one the designer flies would be the Excel.
Scott builds his with carbon rod on purpose just for the reasons you suggest. Pretty sure the same is true for his AM designs.

http://sbmodelsonline.com/index.php?p=1_5_F3P

Pat MacKenzie
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 08:30 PM
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I found the one that I will be building. It is every bit the model that the MX3 is supposed to be. It's an extra 330 by DW foamies. It has the huge counter balances, and throws as the one the MX3 is supposed to have.

It's just a shame that I have to start in the hole $100 bucks and a weeks worth of building to own the model I should already have.

Mike really should of be 100% honest from the start, and I would of never had to waste my time.

Thanks for taking time to respond to this thread. AKf
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 09:15 PM
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Another good kit that includes all the parts you need is the Osiris V2 by Andrew Jesky. It's a bigger aircraft for a large hall or outdoors but it flies great. Rolls cleanly on the thrust line, knife edges easily and will do all snaps and spins with class. It's available from Fancy Foam.
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Old Jul 09, 2014, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCNorthBC View Post
Another good kit that includes all the parts you need is the Osiris V2 by Andrew Jesky. It's a bigger aircraft for a large hall or outdoors but it flies great. Rolls cleanly on the thrust line, knife edges easily and will do all snaps and spins with class. It's available from Fancy Foam.
Lol Available from FancyFoam.
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 01:46 AM
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Edited: Devin and Rj answered it better.

Sure seems like a lot of fuss for a toy airplane.
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 03:18 AM
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jhicks I think you need to read it again.
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 09:10 AM
Team Futaba
Devin McGRath's Avatar
Rochester New York
Joined Oct 2004
947 Posts
Seriously ?

Tom, (akfreak)

what are you trying to gain at this point??

I went out of my way to call you and talk to you about the airframe you are building and try and help you in what ever way I could send you bracing pictures and expain to you that the major difference in these planes is the counterbalace size. And the reason for this is the general public will have a hard time doing the bracing on the ailerons. We have the airframes break in flight even with the rediculous amount of bracing/ inlayed plastic hinges/ fiberglass cloth reinforcement ect....

As I mentioned in the other thread I still plan on doing a build thread for those interested in the larger aileron build as it is quite difficult to do properly. Life just gets in the way of finishing all the projects


And "if mike offered you a refund" .........Mike already offered you a refund on your kit.


Also earlier in the MX3 thread you designed your own in a matter of minutes based on the pictures you saw in the thread "becauae its a simple design" . You must have seen some value in purchasing the actual airplane instead of the copy you already made?


As far as the kit not including all the nessisary carbon tube. Take a look at the pricing of the carbon tube and strip.... I spend over twice as much on carbon as a kit costs for every build. And the kit was already to expensive for your liking "just a pile of foam and carbon"

A kit in Europe with what you want included and you are expecting for $85 ..... costs upwards of $200


We take pride in our designs and really I dont apreciate your negativity... It started way before you even purchased the airframe and im sure will stretch far past when you no longer have it...


You can go through all of my posts on rc groups and you will not see another that has me participating like this in any way.
I treat the forums as a way to help others be successful in the hobby. But at this point you are bordering on defamation of character and slander. And what you are saying needs clarification for others looking through the thread.


You will not see another post from me about this matter.

Tom if you care to talk more you have my email / number.

Also if anyone has any questions on this airframe or clarification on anything please feel free to contact Myself, RJ or Mike



Devin McGrath
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 10:13 AM
Oly crap.. Deese ease not gud!
hpapilot's Avatar
USA, NC, Kernersville
Joined Nov 2006
1,160 Posts
Hi Tom,

First of all, please excuse me for not replying to any of your posts so far. I am a full-time student and am working two jobs, not leaving a whole lot of time for the forums! I really appreciate Devin and everyone else for helping me out in answering your concerns.

I am sorry to hear that you are not happy with your MX3 kit! Let me clarify a few things. The MX3 kit currently sold is, indeed, not the exact airplane that Devin and I flew at ETOC in 2013. The differences are simple:
  • 1. The Fancy Foam MX3 is slightly smaller, with a wingspan of 33.75". Devin's and my VPP models have a 35" span.
  • 2. The Fancy Foam MX3 has smaller aileron counterbalances.
  • 3. The Fancy Foam MX3 does not include the same carbon fiber, fiberglass, and hardware Devin and I use to complete our airplanes.
There are very specific reasons for these differences.
  • 1. The airplane is designed to fly best at a specific wing loading. Our airplanes come out quite heavy with our heavy VPP setup. Most pilots will use a lighter, non-VPP setup, or the more common lighter 2S VPP system. To ensure the airplane is at a more ideal wing loading for these pilots, I released the smaller version of the airplane. The big airplane built with light setups is too "floaty" and does not carry adequate energy for freestyle aerobatics. The entire airplane was uniformly scaled and thus retains the same force balance that makes it feel well balanced in the air.
  • 2. The large aileron counterbalances come with many issues. They are difficult to brace to make strong enough. They break very easily. And they create a ton of drag in flight when deflected, which takes time to learn to live with. These are all issues that, for most pilots, are just not worth dealing with for the minor benefits.
  • 3. The amount of carbon fiber pultrusion Devin and I use to build our competition airplanes would make the kit price unrealistic. The kit should come with enough carbon to do all of the necessary bracing to make the airplane perform well, though.

The airplane has the same outline as our current airplane. It is the same size as the MX3 that we flew for several years before this version. The size difference would have been difficult for you to notice. But, honestly, it should be obvious from the pictures on the Fancy Foam website that the aileron counterbalances are smaller.

I understand that you feel the airplane was misrepresented. I apologize that you feel that way. I will make sure the website is updated to clarify that there are some small differences between the two airplanes, made intentionally to make the production version better for the majority of pilots.

Mike has offered you a refund of your kit. Obviously, there is nothing I can do to return the time you feel was wasted in building the kit. However, have you flown your MX3? I personally think this is a great flying airplane, or I would not have released it to the public! If you disagree, I'm sorry to hear that... we must not agree on the flying qualities we appreciate in an indoor airplane.

If you are unhappy with the performance of your airplane, please post your setup and what performance issues you've experienced and I will be glad to try to help correct them.

If you have any further concerns, please shoot me a PM with your phone number and I will be happy to give you a call to discuss! I have cleared my inbox and apologize that it was full.

Best Regards,

RJ Gritter
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 11:21 AM
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This is not about you Devin or RJ. You guys are wonderful guys that go out of your way to help others, it shows based on your actions. I do not have a problem with you guys, and never have.

The problem is Mike. Mike may very well be your friend, but he is not mine. This is strictly business. I asked Mike from the get go, and asked him again for clarification recently (before you and I spoke). I asked him a simple question. Is this MX3 the plane RJ used in the 2013 ETOC? He said, "yes" so I bought it.

After a couple of months of asking for instructions, images, and any info on bracing, with no help from Manufacturer, I spoke to my friends and got some help. You see there was not a single close up picture of RJ's plane and no build instructions so I was forced to take a shot in the dark and build the MX3 on my own. The MX2 instructions may very well help build many foamies, but that J3 cub style of wing bracing isn't going to bode well for a milled depron model.

Devin, you did step up and offer way more than I asked for trying to help. I am extremely thankful. You are a very giving and nice person. The fact is I had already finished my plane for the most part. So the information was extremely helpful for future builds, but this one would have to be messed up pretty badly to try and make it close to what it was supposed to be. Thank you again.


Going back to Mike, I tried to speak to him via email several times, and not one time did he ever hint that he may of made any mistakes. What he did say is basically that I could never build a real one, and sending me the real one would be like sending John Forces race car to an idiot. Not only could I not build it, but flying it would be futile because I would break it the first time I tried.

I get it, you guys are competitors, and you guys need to have special planes to be at the top level. I get it, you guys spend hours building and tweaking your planes to make them perfect. The regular guy not only does not have the skills to build it or fly it, but the fact is the MX3 that RJ used to win the 2013 ETOC is his personal baby. I just want to say, I can build anything, and felt pretty insulted on top of already being pissed off.

This leads me back to my original problem. If in fact the "Real MX3" is not for sale, the why in the hell is he marketing it like anyone can buy one. Why on earth would he be saying that the MX3 I bought was used to win the 2013 ETOC when you and I both know that is a lie?

So I'll ask you publicly, was the MX3 that FF sells ever used in a contest? Was it used to win the 2013 ETOC? You and I both know the answer is no. The plane you guys have is totally different. Not only is the wing different, the aileron is different, but every single milled cross brace is different. I understand that I could of modded the MX3 I received to make it more like the "Real MX3" but why if it is marketed they way it was.


I know that I am going to be the one to suffer the most out of this public display of disappointment. I hope that Mike will find it in himself to admit his mistakes, mistakes that cost me money, and a lot of time. Mistakes that might cause someone else to deal with this same problems.

Devin, I never wanted to cause you or RJ any problems. I only ever wanted Mike to admit his mistakes, take action to correct his mistakes, and to move on. After several emails, he acted like he had made no mistakes. Yes, he did offer me a refund. He said box up the airframe and send it back. It's like his foam has value, but my time and effort has zero value. I would rather stomp that plane flat and call it done with, than to sent my hard work back for $100 bucks. It would be like there was and is no problem, while he continues to live in this dreamworld of no wrong doing.

I can see from some of the forum responses, that most here think there is no problem. I guess it's me that stands alone and expects to get what I pay for. If you as a business say you are selling a contest winning plane, and asked to clarify what contest it won, and you state 2013 ETOC., I feel that is the plane that should be received by the customer.

Had I seen how much different the one I received is from the actual plane used to win the ETOC, I would of never bought it and wasted 40 to 50 hours getting it ready for electronics. I suppose I am at fault a little. Being ignorant of cutting edge indoor freestyle planes, I assumed that I would be getting what I was told in the ad as well as from the owner of the company's mouth.

It wasn't until I saw a real world class indoor freestyle plane up close, and able to ask questions did I realize there is special hollow CF tubing needed to build one. This was after the fact. Mine was already 90% complete and caused me to dig deeper and discover that my MX3 is nothing like the Real MX3 used to win contests.

Devin, I apologize to you and RJ I apologize to you for casing you any problems. You don't deserve any of this. I will say it for the record, you guys did nothing wrong. Also you do not deserve any of the blame from Mike. When I asked Mike for instructions for the MX3, he elated that he relies on you and RJ to do that work. I took what he was saying, the reason there was no Instructions for so many months is because of you guys. I don't see it that way, it's his business, and if he doesn't have a basic set of instructions for a product he is selling, then that product isn't ready for sale.

Mike may very well make very good foamies, however his choices to conduct business the way he does needs to change. It needs to change at minimum to avoid what happened to me from happening to someone else.

Again, Devin from the bottom of my heart, it am truly sorry for any problems I have caused you. RJ, also I am very sorry if I have caused you any problems, this was never my intention. All I ever wanted was a plane like you have. I saved and thought I had bought one. I never thought I would spend $400 on a foamie, but I did. Now I know I need to spend another $200 to start over and get what I want.

This is kind of funny, for $600 I could have a new 88" 3D arf, but I already have that, I want a TVVPP indoor plane that's like what the top pilots are flying.
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 11:26 AM
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RJ thanks for the post, I never intended to waste yours or Devins time. This isn't your guys fault. Sorry to waste your time.
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 03:49 PM
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motorhead's Avatar
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akfreak placed his order on March 5th 2014.

On Feb 28th 2014 he made the post attached and stated " I think the aileron has more control surface. I might just have to cut my own."

Tom, you knew before you placed the order that there was differences between the production model and stated "the MX3 is super simple. I made a few changes so I would not be making a direct copy.", so apparently you are ok with changes as long as you made them.

Tom, I publicly rescind my offer to refund you purchase. Honestly I expected to get a padded envelop with a smashed airframe. As long as you did not fly it after you got a refund.

It is not just this case in which you have publicly insulted designers and manufacturers.
"I love this counter rotating prop setup. I wish it was available in the USA. The price of $270 euros plus $30 euros shipping is $408 USD. I mean it's a wonderful setup, and I suppose if I was competing for a world title and needed to be on a level playing field I would have to pay the price.

At this point all I can hope for China to make a similar device, or someone in the USA to develop one. "

"I think for $400+ you should get the entire plane. I respect your time in R&D but it is a super simple mechanism. Very well thought indeed, but there is $30 +/- in materials (minus motor). Once set up to machine the parts, one could knock these out pretty quickly.

I think I will try to make my own system before I spend $400 "

Still myself and many others have been willing to give expert advice.

I recommended to you to build the MX3 using the MX2 instructions and the pictures posted by BeyondParallax who did a great job with his bracing. Again sorry that official instructions are not done but you were given what you needed.

Tom, you have never claimed to have flown your kit let alone TVVPP at all and yet you claim that you were robbed when the reality is you were recommended and sold by experts what you needed to be successful.

If you can behave yourself and be respectful to those who have experience I and I am sure others will be happy to help you be successful in learning to fly TVVPP.

Mike
Fancyfoam
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Old Jul 10, 2014, 04:12 PM
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Say what you wish. I never knew there was a difference in the mx3 offered on your website and one flown at the 2013 ETOC until after I saw a close up video do Devins just a few days back. This was when I asked you again, which contest did the MX3 you are selling win.

Again, It was just recently that I realized you were deceptive. I asked for clarification again, and you lied again. This is the reason you haven't heard me complain about it , being that the order was in March.
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