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Old Jan 22, 2016, 07:40 AM
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Why religion is immoral

This is one of the most disturbing things I've ever heard of. Consider not reading past this point if you have a medical condition which may be exacerbated by stress.



1941 Bila Tserkva massacre
One SS man who saw the subsequent murders on 21 August 1941 described them as follows:


I went to the woods alone. The Wehrmacht had already dug a grave. The children were brought along in a tractor. I had nothing to do with this technical procedure. The Ukrainians were standing around trembling. The children were taken down from the tractor. They were lined up along the top of the grave and shot so that they fell into it. The Ukrainians did not aim at any particular part of the body. They fell into the grave. The wailing was indescribable. I shall never forget the scene throughout my life. I find it very hard to bear. I particulary [sic] remember a small fair-haired girl who took me by the hand. She too was shot later ... The grave was near some woods. It was not near the rifle-range. The execution must have taken place in the afternoon at about 3:30 or 4:00. It took place the day after the discussions at the Feldkommandanten ... Many children were hit four or five times before they died.[4]

The existence of such incomprehensible cruelty towards defenceless children makes me certain that no benevolent deity watches over this planet. Furthermore, it sullies the memory of those children, which is the only thing they will ever have, to abrogate responsibility for facing up to the world as it really is, and to retreat instead into a make-believe fantasy where a kindly god will make everything alright.

No he won't. That small fair-haired girl who took the hand of an SS soldier as she was about to die is not in heaven. She is dead. Tears.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 08:03 AM
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What does that have to do with religion?

Sixty Minutes did a piece a few months ago on these forgotten horrors:
Quote:
Holocaust investigator on parallel between Nazis and ISIS

A French Catholic priest, who devotes his life to finding unmarked graves of the Holocaust, says genocide sleeps between generations

On 60 Minutes this week, Lara Logan interviews Father Patrick Desbois, a Catholic priest determined to expose the forgotten massacres of the Holocaust by locating the killing fields of Eastern Europe, where Nazi death squads murdered millions of Jews.

While the atrocities at camps like Auschwitz and Dachau are well documented, little is known about these other victims. Desbois feels a profound responsibility to change that, explains producer Alan Goldberg in the video player above.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/holocaus...azis-and-isis/
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 08:13 AM
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Nothing but the libs need some thing to blame for all the bad in the world. Sure can't place blame on the people who do these evil acts. Most of the worst acts like these were done with no religion involved. Evil abounds in the world and man is to blame. All seeking power and money.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 08:16 AM
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Nothing but the libs need some thing to blame for all the bad in the world. Sure can't place blame on the people who do these evil acts. Most of the worst acts like these were done with no religion involved. Evil abounds in the world and man is to blame. All seeking power and money.
An asinine opening comment doesn't serve to bolster the rest of what you wrote.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 08:47 AM
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An asinine opening comment .
Asinine thread title
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 11:19 AM
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Religions like all superstitions cannot be "moral" or "immoral", in most cases they are just a bit odd and silly!
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
This is one of the most disturbing things I've ever heard of. Consider not reading past this point if you have a medical condition which may be exacerbated by stress.



1941 Bila Tserkva massacre
One SS man who saw the subsequent murders on 21 August 1941 described them as follows:


I went to the woods alone. The Wehrmacht had already dug a grave. The children were brought along in a tractor. I had nothing to do with this technical procedure. The Ukrainians were standing around trembling. The children were taken down from the tractor. They were lined up along the top of the grave and shot so that they fell into it. The Ukrainians did not aim at any particular part of the body. They fell into the grave. The wailing was indescribable. I shall never forget the scene throughout my life. I find it very hard to bear. I particulary [sic] remember a small fair-haired girl who took me by the hand. She too was shot later ... The grave was near some woods. It was not near the rifle-range. The execution must have taken place in the afternoon at about 3:30 or 4:00. It took place the day after the discussions at the Feldkommandanten ... Many children were hit four or five times before they died.[4]

The existence of such incomprehensible cruelty towards defenceless children makes me certain that no benevolent deity watches over this planet. Furthermore, it sullies the memory of those children, which is the only thing they will ever have, to abrogate responsibility for facing up to the world as it really is, and to retreat instead into a make-believe fantasy where a kindly god will make everything alright.

No he won't. That small fair-haired girl who took the hand of an SS soldier as she was about to die is not in heaven. She is dead. Tears.
Why do you blame something you claim does not exist?
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
This is one of the most disturbing things I've ever heard of. Consider not reading past this point if you have a medical condition which may be exacerbated by stress.



1941 Bila Tserkva massacre
One SS man who saw the subsequent murders on 21 August 1941 described them as follows:


I went to the woods alone. The Wehrmacht had already dug a grave. The children were brought along in a tractor. I had nothing to do with this technical procedure. The Ukrainians were standing around trembling. The children were taken down from the tractor. They were lined up along the top of the grave and shot so that they fell into it. The Ukrainians did not aim at any particular part of the body. They fell into the grave. The wailing was indescribable. I shall never forget the scene throughout my life. I find it very hard to bear. I particulary [sic] remember a small fair-haired girl who took me by the hand. She too was shot later ... The grave was near some woods. It was not near the rifle-range. The execution must have taken place in the afternoon at about 3:30 or 4:00. It took place the day after the discussions at the Feldkommandanten ... Many children were hit four or five times before they died.[4]

The existence of such incomprehensible cruelty towards defenceless children makes me certain that no benevolent deity watches over this planet. Furthermore, it sullies the memory of those children, which is the only thing they will ever have, to abrogate responsibility for facing up to the world as it really is, and to retreat instead into a make-believe fantasy where a kindly god will make everything alright.

No he won't. That small fair-haired girl who took the hand of an SS soldier as she was about to die is not in heaven. She is dead. Tears.
The intent of those murders was to end the specific religion of those victims.

Ending religion would hand a victory to the murderers.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 03:26 PM
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I find it interesting that the general perception of "god " , at least in Western culture, largely is based upon false traditions, rather than basic and simple tennants of Scriptural truth. It is no wonder that such falsities foster so much negative comment about supposed shortcomings and the very nature of God.

You are right, that little girl is not in heaven. the Bible never once mentions that good people go to heaven and the bad go to hell. Nor does it ever put forth the notion that God somehow takes the life of some innocent child to be with him in heaven.

It does go to great lengths explaining how "man dominates man to his own injury", or how people refuse simple "truth in favor of lies". or the ongoing fight between good and evil among men, angles, and Satan. It also dwells on man's shortcomings and failures stemming from Adam's inherited sin, but also probably says just as much on how to overcome those influences successfully.

If God notes the death of a sparrow, I believe he knows the situation of that little girl, and all the others so ill-treated, throughout history. He has forthrightly promised there will be an end to human governance and a"' resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous". That pretty much covers EVERYBODY and will effectively counter the slander He has endured and is still enduring.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by packardpursuit View Post
I find it interesting that the general perception of "god " , at least in Western culture, largely is based upon false traditions, rather than basic and simple tennants of Scriptural truth. It is no wonder that such falsities foster so much negative comment about supposed shortcomings and the very nature of God.

You are right, that little girl is not in heaven. the Bible never once mentions that good people go to heaven and the bad go to hell. Nor does it ever put forth the notion that God somehow takes the life of some innocent child to be with him in heaven.

It does go to great lengths explaining how "man dominates man to his own injury", or how people refuse simple "truth in favor of lies". or the ongoing fight between good and evil among men, angles, and Satan. It also dwells on man's shortcomings and failures stemming from Adam's inherited sin, but also probably says just as much on how to overcome those influences successfully.

If God notes the death of a sparrow, I believe he knows the situation of that little girl, and all the others so ill-treated, throughout history. He has forthrightly promised there will be an end to human governance and a"' resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous". That pretty much covers EVERYBODY and will effectively counter the slander He has endured and is still enduring.
According to scripture nothing happens that isn't within god's ultimate plan. God is also omniscient which means he sees all his actions unfold like a time line on a video tape. He is able to see past the choices of humans and even his own choices (which is a pretty nonsensical concept). Even if we attribute the evil and suffering in the world to man's free will god is still ultimately responsible for choosing that particular path and time line in his creation which he knew would ultimately lead to bad human choices that cause the suffering of other humans/children etc. A god that knowingly chooses to create sentient conscious beings that he also knew would go on to destroy their own happiness and inflict immense emotional harm and distress for century after century as he stands idle is an immoral monster of unimaginable evil that doesn't deserve respect let alone worship. If such a being truly exists then he is the bad one compared to Satan who was at least honest regarding the fruit and challenging such an immoral evil monster.

Over the centuries many philosophers have applied Socratic reasoning to the problem of evil in an attempt to reconcile the facts of reality vs god's supposed good nature which led many of them to abandon the characteristics of Abrahamic god entirely as they are not reconcilable. This is after all the same god that chose to create mankind despite knowing clearly that down the line they would be such a disappointment that he would end up having to drown every man woman and child in the flood (outside of Noah's family). This is also the same god that supposedly gets very angry and surprised at things that occur in the bible which is also nonsensical as emotion is a survival instinct based on our limitations as beings and it arises from the fact that we are presented with new information all the time. With infinite knowledge and no surprises there would logically be no emotion as you could never get surprised or angry or fall in love etc as you experience all things and all time simultaneously. In fact the very concept of time is erroneous for such a being.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 05:34 PM
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"According to scripture nothing happens that isn't within god's ultimate plan."

Don't disagree with that sentiment. However the lie/slander is that God has done nothing and will do nothing , or worst of all will do nothing is according to your human outlook.

When did God make anyone (especially Satin!) evil? Was Adam's sin truly an impossibly hard test? Perhap some of your ire should be directed toward him? Or "the god of this system of things"??
Could it be your understanding and thus reasoning on Bible matters is warped from the outset???
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by packardpursuit View Post
"According to scripture nothing happens that isn't within god's ultimate plan."

Don't disagree with that sentiment. However the lie/slander is that God has done nothing and will do nothing , or worst of all will do nothing is according to your human outlook.

When did God make anyone (especially Satin!) evil? Was Adam's sin truly an impossibly hard test? Perhap some of your ire should be directed toward him? Or "the god of this system of things"??
Could it be your understanding and thus reasoning on Bible matters is warped from the outset???
I don't understand what you are getting at. My whole point is god is ultimately the one responsible for the existence of evil and suffering. It was within his power to choose a different path/timeline or to choose not create anything at all (as he did for an eternity before creating humans). That is the whole point. He went forward and created humans knowing well in advance that this choice would result in conscious beings, CHILDREN etc, that would suffer as a result of his choice to create. If he chose not to create or create something different then those children/people wouldn't be enduring millennia of suffering. This an irreconcilable fact if you follow the biblical narrative and as a result the only logical conclusion is that this God is an immoral evil monster PERIOD.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 05:48 PM
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The intent of those murders was to end the specific religion of those victims.

Ending religion would hand a victory to the murderers.
The Germans were (are?) obsessed with race. Those murders, and many just like them, were motivated by racism and not by theological incompatibilities. Untold Slav and Roma children suffered similar fates because of who they were, rather than because of what they believed in. Einsatzgruppen and their Wehrmacht enablers were not in the habit of asking their victims to recant-or-else.

Bila Tserkva is history. Horrible beyond words, but it cannot be undone. All a person can hope to achieve is to contribute toward building a better world, in order that such atrocities may become less likely in the future. (Sandy Hook?)

It strikes me that at a certain threshold an event is so vile, so unfair, and so asymmetrically painful for the victims, that the fact it actually happened becomes fundamentally incompatible with the supposed existence of a benevolent omnipotence. It is of course a very old argument, and religious apologists try to come up with all sorts of excuses to explain why He couldn't be bothered intervening, but to my way of thinking beyond a certain threshold there can no longer be any ambiguity. Massacres of defenceless children rule out the existence of a benevolent god.

Those beyond-the-threshold events present every person with a choice. They can face up to humanity being on its own, and do their bit to improve our world, or they can continue to retreat into religious fantasy. My contention is that the fact it is a choice makes it immoral for adults to pick the side of ineffectual feel-good fantasies.

For the record, I would never seek to "end religion" or even suppress it by force. Everyone should always be free to believe whatever they want, but that does not make all beliefs equally valid or moral.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 06:19 PM
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People are immoral ... religion is a construct of people.

“If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness.” — A phrase that was carved on the walls of a concentration camp cell during WWII by a Jewish prisoner.
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Old Jan 22, 2016, 06:21 PM
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People are immoral ... religion is a construct of people.

“If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness.” — A phrase that was carved on the walls of a concentration camp cell during WWII by a Jewish prisoner.
Oddly enough, I had a similar conversation with one of my students today when talking Artificial Intelligence.

Clyde
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