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Old Jun 24, 2013, 08:33 PM
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United States, UT
Joined Nov 2009
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Double Nano Lock Out Question

I've got double nanos on all my big planes (50cc and up...actually I have nanos in almost everything I own, 13 planes, hexacopter, and heli).

Haven't had any issues with any of them tell now, a 50cc plane started locking out on me. The plane had no problems until I added a smoke system (and second nano) to it.

I have it set up to where the main rx is sitting up high in the cockpit - 6" or more away from everything. Not a lose wire in sight!

The slave rx runs only my smoke pump, that's it. It is not in a good place. It's by wires and such but I figured I didn't care if that one locked out.

Question:
If the slave locks out, will it somehow cause the main one to lock out too?


I have two theories
1 - Maybe the slave locking out will cause the main one to lock out (long shot here but who knows?)
2 - My main rx is set up so high that it's getting more vibrations than normal and it's getting vibrated to death? Maybe it's been getting vibrated all along but it's just coincidence that it started locking out now after I added the smoke system??????

Thoughts?

Yes, the power source is good..... I'll answer that right now. Never had a blinking light upon landing. Just as an added idea I'll run the tattle tail in it next time.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 11:35 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
Joined Jun 2005
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The receivers can not lock each other out. What happens that makes you think there is a lockout occurring? Vibration can cause servo connections to disconnect and reconnect. If you are using older (2 years+) Hitec digital servos, a loss of connection to the servo means a 1.5 second 'reboot' time of the servo itself before it becomes operational.

So, this setup worked fine before adding a second receiver, but did you plug servos or extensions while adding the seconds reciever?

What does a range test show?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 09:51 AM
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United States, UT
Joined Nov 2009
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I have fail safes set. Throttle and all control surfaces go into fail safe mode for a second or so, then I get it back. That's how I know it's locking out. I haven't had smoke on when this has happened so I don't know for sure if both rx's are locking out or not. If it were just one servo it would just be one surface I'd think. But because ALL control surfaces quit, it's going into failsafe mode.... it's locking out.

The range test is over 200', checked that right before this last flight.

When I added the second rx it was only for the smoke system - so smoke pump connection is the only thing added to the system. I'm not 100% sure that the problem didn't start before I added the smoke system though, it has just got worse since I did.

It started with just a little glitch one flight when the plane was way up high a long ways away, then it got worse and worse. Last flight it was locking out on me right off the bat. It did it about 5 times within 2 minutes all close range, 150' or less close to me. Yes, I know, I should have landed after the first one...landing with a full tank of smoke is against club policy though. That stuff needs to be disposed of properly! ;-)

I've scanned the plane high and low for anything lose but it's all zip-tied tight. This is why I wondered if the nano is getting rattled to death or something. Maybe antenna is coming lose or cracked?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 05:20 PM
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Launceston Arpt, Tasmania, Australia
Joined Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfan450 View Post
I have fail safes set. Throttle and all control surfaces go into fail safe mode for a second or so, then I get it back. That's how I know it's locking out. I haven't had smoke on when this has happened so I don't know for sure if both rx's are locking out or not. If it were just one servo it would just be one surface I'd think. But because ALL control surfaces quit, it's going into failsafe mode.... it's locking out.

The range test is over 200', checked that right before this last flight.

When I added the second rx it was only for the smoke system - so smoke pump connection is the only thing added to the system. I'm not 100% sure that the problem didn't start before I added the smoke system though, it has just got worse since I did.

It started with just a little glitch one flight when the plane was way up high a long ways away, then it got worse and worse. Last flight it was locking out on me right off the bat. It did it about 5 times within 2 minutes all close range, 150' or less close to me. Yes, I know, I should have landed after the first one...landing with a full tank of smoke is against club policy though. That stuff needs to be disposed of properly! ;-)

I've scanned the plane high and low for anything lose but it's all zip-tied tight. This is why I wondered if the nano is getting rattled to death or something. Maybe antenna is coming lose or cracked?
I was flying at our new flying field a couple of months ago all by myself.
The new field is within 1Km or so from the Tasmanian car racing track.
They had a big meet on that day. I went into failsafe a couple of times with the model within 100 meters or so from me, both times at the start of a new race, talk about background noise! I was using the XPS8, never had a problem before.
I do not know what those guys are using to talk to their drivers, but they must talk a lot, all of them at the same time! definitely blanked me out. Just mentioning this because your problem could be, I say could be an increase in local radio traffic.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 10:35 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
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Well, your range test is longer than the distance you are experiencing the lockout. So, might be inclined to believe the problem is either vibration related and you are using older Hitec digital servos (we have seen these on several occasions) or maybe the issue is the transmitter module or antenna. You can't get worse range with the button not being pressed than it is when pressed. Check our module's center pin... unscrew the antenna and make sure that the pin is flush or sticking slightly above the gold connector housing. If it's not, then we need to replace the connector because it would be broken and making intermittent connection with the antenna. Are you by chance using a Futaba 9C radio?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 11:26 PM
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The hitecs are 3 years old with 40 flights on the plane (yup, I log my flights).

2-5625's, 2-625's, 1-5645, 1-425bb (good ol trusty plastic).

Upon inspecting them to see what kind they were I noticed a lose servo arm screw on my rudder servo - a 5645. That would be a metal screw in a metal socket, wiggling around a little. The servo arm was actually about to fall off. I really hope that was my problem but I'm not sure if that would give enough feedback to cause a problem? What do you think? The set screw was still there, just about to fall out. That may explain the "slowly getting worse" scenario.

I hate to just go fly it thinking, "well ok, we found the problem!", but what else do you do? Range check with the motor running hard?

I'm using a JR9303 with associated module. I've been flying other stuff since I started having issues with this plane so I know it's not the module/remote - which is good. I did check it though, looks good as new. I've always been careful to not over tighten it.

It's got to be either a vibrated antenna that cracked or that set screw issue, unless you have any other ideas for me to consider. It's definitely not other interferance as I live in the middle of no where so-to-speak and no one else flies within 20 miles of me.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:33 AM
PGR
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Originally Posted by JimDrew View Post
Are you by chance using a Futaba 9C radio?
I do, and while I'm not having any noticeable problems my gut kind of cramped up a little when I read that.

Care to 'splain, Jim? What's up with Futaba 9Cs?

Pete
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 09:17 AM
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I would swap the two nanos, reprogram and fly with the tattle tale.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:52 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
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Originally Posted by rcfan450 View Post
The hitecs are 3 years old with 40 flights on the plane (yup, I log my flights).

2-5625's, 2-625's, 1-5645, 1-425bb (good ol trusty plastic).
It could be vibration causing the servo connection(s) to be intermittent. Here is an interesting test to perform... turn on the transmitter then turn on the receiver and IMMEDIATELY start moving the sticks. You should have instant control. If you don't, and it takes about 1.5 seconds for some of the servos (like the 5625 and 5645) to move then you definitely have the older Hitec servos with the LONG boot up. I have one F16 with 5645's in the ailerons and it always spooks me a bit to be flying it knowing that any type of disconnection of the power to the servo (regardless of the reason) will lock out just my ailerons while the servos are booting up.

You stated that your Nano LED is not blinking, which means that the Nano itself is not losing power, but the connections to the servos could be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfan450 View Post
Upon inspecting them to see what kind they were I noticed a lose servo arm screw on my rudder servo - a 5645. That would be a metal screw in a metal socket, wiggling around a little. The servo arm was actually about to fall off. I really hope that was my problem but I'm not sure if that would give enough feedback to cause a problem? What do you think? The set screw was still there, just about to fall out. That may explain the "slowly getting worse" scenario.
Although the receiver is very immune from EMI/RFI, the servos are not. So, it is possible that you are getting interference from the metal screw and arm vibrating in the metal servo spline. That could definitely help explain why the problem has become worse over time. How many times did we see this type of problem with a metal clevis on a glow engine's carburator when we were all flying 72MHz?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfan450 View Post
I hate to just go fly it thinking, "well ok, we found the problem!", but what else do you do? Range check with the motor running hard?
You definitely need to range test with the engine running at various speeds to cover all types of vibration harmonics.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:55 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
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Originally Posted by PGR View Post
I do, and while I'm not having any noticeable problems my gut kind of cramped up a little when I read that.

Care to 'splain, Jim? What's up with Futaba 9Cs?

Pete
Futaba 9C transmitters are notorious for having bad (cold) solder joints at the module port connector. The fix is to open up your 9C and just resolder each of the 5 module port connector pins at the circuit board. It's not a big deal to do. Simple changes in temperature, twisting the case, etc. have all been known to cause one or more of the module port pins to suddenly become open circuit. Close inspection will show a crack in the solder on all 4 sides of the square pin (in the round hole).
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:59 PM
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United States, UT
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Originally Posted by JimDrew View Post
Although the receiver is very immune from EMI/RFI, the servos are not. So, it is possible that you are getting interference from the metal screw and arm vibrating in the metal servo spline.
I should have specified that I'm not using a metal servo arm, so just a metal screw on the metal spline would have been moving around.

I'll test the servos like you said and range test with the motor on and see what happens.

You don't think it's possible to have a cracked antenna or something like that?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:36 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
Joined Jun 2005
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Cracked antenna on the transmitter module? Yes, that is possible, but that would show up in a range test by moving the antenna around.

Metal on metal creates RF noise. That's why we use a plastic clevis on carburators.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:50 PM
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United States, UT
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No, cracked antenna on the rx - I've already determined the module tx antenna are fine because I've been flying other stuff w/o issue.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 04:07 PM
most exalted one
BC Canada
Joined Aug 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDrew View Post
Futaba 9C transmitters are notorious for having bad (cold) solder joints at the module port connector. The fix is to open up your 9C and just resolder each of the 5 module port connector pins at the circuit board. It's not a big deal to do. Simple changes in temperature, twisting the case, etc. have all been known to cause one or more of the module port pins to suddenly become open circuit. Close inspection will show a crack in the solder on all 4 sides of the square pin (in the round hole).
2 Hitec Optic 6 have shown similar at our club alone!!!
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 04:46 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
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Originally Posted by rcfan450 View Post
No, cracked antenna on the rx - I've already determined the module tx antenna are fine because I've been flying other stuff w/o issue.
You can't 'crack' the antenna on the Nanos. They are soldered and glued to the board with "shoe-goo", which is a semi-hard glue that will absorb vibration and prevent you from ripping the antenna off of the board. Well, if other aircraft are working fine with your transmitter module, and you really are not seeing the Nano(s) blinking, then that would narrow things down to either to a defective receiver, intermittent servo connections with the Hitec servos, or noise from the screw affecting the servos(s).

Now, when you say 'failsafes are set', did you delibarately go and program the failsafe mapping using the XDP and then use the live-active failsafe to set those positions? That is what is required to actually 'set the failsafes'. I am trying to determine if there really is a failsafe occurring vs. intermittent servo connection, making it look like a failsafe for any of the channels with those Hitec digital servos. Trust me, we have had a few dozen people with this exact same problem in gasser setups, where vibration over time has caused servo pins to wiggle during flight, causing the servo(s) to reboot - and it looks just like a lockout. I watched one of my friends at the local field have the issue. I called up Hitec right after I figured it out, and the brand new servos that just came in had fixed the problem - but nobody from Hitec USA had known about the issue until I pointed it out.
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