HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Dec 01, 2011, 06:38 PM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Joined Nov 2005
3,547 Posts
Contest
2012 Nats Cross Country Soaring

Gentleman, well, 2012 is coming fast, and XC is up at the Nats. The management group has some news of interest for you as there will be a major change in XC from years past. Below you will find the event document that has the rules and pertinent information that you will need to fly the event. The dates are July 28/29, the opening weekend of the Nats (the soaring portion of the Nats runs July 28-August 5), that same weekend, they will also be flying RES/Nos, but that will not cause the XC participants any problems as we have secured a new site to fly XC from.

Our homebase for XC is located north of Farmland, IN, which is east of the AMA IAC at One Fun Farm (OFF). If you go to Google Earth the coordinates for the start gate are, ~40 deg 13'15" and 85 deg 07'55". OFF is a family owned farm that has a corn maize in the fall, but has a very nice north/south running hay field that will be our launch and recovery site (see photo below). The field is ~2200' x 350' and that should provide us with more than adequate room for the mission. The course will be flown to the east from OFF on West County Road 400 North and ending just past the intersection of North County road 200 West at ~40 deg 13'15" and 85 deg 00'55".

You may ask why we decided to move XC off the IAC? Well, it is for one reason, safety. The course described above is a very straight forward course that has a minimum of trees along it (and none that totally obscure the view of your aircraft when directly below), there are less houses and people involved in the area, no transmission lines to cross, and we are much further from full size aviation activites that are located in proximatey of the IAC (outer marker of the Muncie ILS to be exact and Reece Field traffic). We realize that this means moving to the alternate site and setting up there, but we feel that in the environment we are in with the FAA and trying to provide the safest venue possible, it was past due to move the contest somewhere else.

Let the discussion begin guys, there is also a thread started at Soaring Events for the other events, schedules, and items of interest.

Marc Gellart
2012 CD XC Soaring
2012 Co-Event Diretor Saoring Nats
R.M. Gellart is offline Find More Posts by R.M. Gellart
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Dec 01, 2011, 09:39 PM
Registered User
United States, CO, Denver
Joined Sep 2005
258 Posts
Turn point ?

Thankyou for posting this.

I do have a question regarding multiple laps. The rules state that :

" 22. The Return point is defined as the sailplane and the chase vehicle going past the marked turn point before beginning the return leg. "

Driving the chase vehicle past a point on the road is pretty easy to determine. The glider however going past a point is only valid if it's on the road too. If the glider is off to one side or the other then who's to say that it actually past the point ? Is this point intended to be used as a true turn point and you must fly around it ?
GPS recordings have shown that it's difficult to visually verify that you've made it to a point even when it's straight overhead. If you've now trying to verify that it's made it to a line created by the point that's 90 degrees off the road at some possibly huge distance would be even more difficult. Could you clarify the turn point rule ?

Thanks
Mike
ThermalSeeker is offline Find More Posts by ThermalSeeker
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 02, 2011, 06:24 AM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Joined Nov 2005
3,547 Posts
Mike, this is how we have done this for a long time, but basically it is like F3B Distance task. The course is on a east/west heading, I will have a sign that denotes the turn point destination, and the sailplane will have to pass the plane formed at a right angle to the course at that point. We do not get into using telemetry at this event as many entrants are entering to also do their LV/IV/III level task too and they are usually begging and borrowing to have a picolario in their ship. Does that cover it?

Marc
R.M. Gellart is offline Find More Posts by R.M. Gellart
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 02, 2011, 06:33 AM
Registered User
United States, CO, Denver
Joined Sep 2005
258 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by OVSS Boss View Post
Mike, this is how we have done this for a long time, but basically it is like F3B Distance task... ..... Does that cover it...?

Marc
Yes that's quite clear. It's really two parallel planes or finish lines that you must cross....not turn points that you need to be near or go around. Also after looking at the course it's clear that if traffic allows then you'll be able to sight down the intersecting road that defines that "finish line" to assist in verification as you cross it. That definitely will make it easier.

Thanks for the explanation,
Mike
ThermalSeeker is offline Find More Posts by ThermalSeeker
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 19, 2011, 08:00 PM
Registered User
Afton VA
Joined Sep 2002
469 Posts
Why during RES

Marc,
Can you explain the process in how the AMA works and the dates were chosen.
tbroeski is offline Find More Posts by tbroeski
Last edited by tbroeski; Dec 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 08:55 AM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Joined Nov 2005
3,547 Posts
Very simple answer Tom, we gave the folks at OFF their choice, and that was it. We, Nats management, felt very fortunate to find this site that was safe and welcoming to us. We thought we had hit a homerun Tom, but maybe launching off the side of the road is preferable?

Life is choices, got to make one here.
Marc
R.M. Gellart is offline Find More Posts by R.M. Gellart
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 09:06 AM
Registered User
Afton VA
Joined Sep 2002
469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by OVSS Boss View Post
Very simple answer Tom, we gave the folks at OFF their choice, and that was it. We, Nats management, felt very fortunate to find this site that was safe and welcoming to us. We thought we had hit a homerun Tom, but maybe launching off the side of the road is preferable?

Life is choices, got to make one here.
Marc
I think it is great that things have worked out for the course. Your work is greatly appreciated. A couple of us will be doing the LSF 10 K on Thursday and Friday before RES.

Tom
tbroeski is offline Find More Posts by tbroeski
Last edited by tbroeski; Dec 21, 2011 at 09:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 09:42 AM
LSF V,LSF Secretary,AMA Lifer
Robglover's Avatar
Huntsville
Joined Oct 2003
2,077 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbroeski View Post
I think it is great that things have worked out for the course. Your work is greatly appreciated. A couple of us will be doing the LSF 10 K on Thursday and Friday before RES. Since there's no conflict at all, it just seems that it might work out to do XC before RES. If I can get people to agree, is there any possibility of having it then? It is still very early.

Tom
Tom -

The Nats planning group came up with the best schedule we could. There were more things considered in making this decision than your personal schedule, but pilots schedule and preferences were indeed a factor.

The answer to your above question is yes, of course you can have an event. YOU are always welcome to plan, organize, and run an event. You will need to have a CD license, find a landowner willing to let you use their property to launch from, file for a sanction and properly insure the landowner.

Will the Nats staff run an event early? Of course not.

Bubba, Chief of Complaints Department
Robglover is offline Find More Posts by Robglover
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 01:59 PM
Registered User
Afton VA
Joined Sep 2002
469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robglover View Post
Tom -

The Nats planning group came up with the best schedule we could. There were more things considered in making this decision than your personal schedule, but pilots schedule and preferences were indeed a factor.

The answer to your above question is yes, of course you can have an event. YOU are always welcome to plan, organize, and run an event. You will need to have a CD license, find a landowner willing to let you use their property to launch from, file for a sanction and properly insure the landowner.

Will the Nats staff run an event early? Of course not.

Bubba, Chief of Complaints Department

No offense to the planning group intended.

I was very pleased when Marc got involved, and the course he selected seems like a good one. He got it done. I may just not understand the workings of the NATS "officials", but am willing to help in any way I can. This is NOT a complaint, just some questions - I guess about how thing work.

If it is impossible to have a soaring schedule without a conflict, then so be it. Just would be nice to not have to choose between events every year. In the past XC was up against F3B (now J) RES has so much more participation than J (OFF is a third factor this year). HL/2M. Fly- not fly... It seems to be tough every year (kudos to all who work so hard on this).

So I guess the main question is: is the Nats soaring schedule set in stone, so that it can only be held at a certain period of time and not overlap the pattern events, even if offsite? (again, I don't know exactly what you face in dealing with AMA, etc.) You should know by now that every year I ask the same thing, "why do we have to choose and not have two extra days, especially if it's something specialized like XC."

It would really be nice to know the "process", so I don't have to ask so many questions or chew on my foot so much.

Maybe Marc can answer some of my questions, since it is not directed to the complaints department.

T

We still plan on doing 10 K attempts on the Thursday and Friday before, if anyone is interested. Nothing to do with NATS.
tbroeski is offline Find More Posts by tbroeski
Last edited by tbroeski; Dec 21, 2011 at 03:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 05:25 PM
Registered User
R.M. Gellart's Avatar
Joined Nov 2005
3,547 Posts
Tom,
Well, the AMA's Nats Team gives us our days and we plan our layout from there. In reference to how we came to and some more thoughts to having XC on the weekend that it will be held.

1. Off site facility requirement was met with OFF, we tried to work up one alternative but it did not pan out. In all actuallity, OFF in my book is better as it is more secluded and offers us planty of room for what we do and a direct feed to our course. It took two months of getting things around to get OFF to sign on, no big deal there, as we had decided that XC was going to someplace safer or not happening in 2012. So getting this done I viewed as an imperitive as we had discussed earlier in the fall.

2. Weekend vs. weekday I feel is important. Holding XC on the weekend helps fliers get help on site for the event. I would not hold it on a weekday no matter what, just my view. Also, part of the agreement with OFF, I am the CD and will be on site for the duration, I cannot be there to do it either Th/Fr or the Mo/Tu combos, so that gets flagged on two counts.

3. It was a fairly big deal to get AMA to allow us off site from the IAC, it has never been done with anything other than the indoor FF Nats. We have a good track record with them and they trust our supervision to hold a safe event out there, no one else will be approved to do what we are doing. I guess you can be out there doing your own thing, and that is fine, other than it will not for the National Championship.

4. No matter what, XC was going to be underneath something else. I realize that it fell on events that you like, but I am guessing that if I ask someone else, he might have a different opinion if it was on top of the other weekend. Also, I have not had any other comments, so much as a peep, about this till you brought it up.

5. Schedule has been publicly posted, approved by the AMA Executive Council, and the Nats managers, it is a done deal and will not be changed by this group of LSF officials.

I had thought about sending you a PM, but I wanted to do this here so everyone was on the same page. There are a lot of issues with XC, the FAA/AMA interactions, and others, have the survival of XC in a bit of a perilous position. This was our answer to to having the safest and most straight forward event, and as always the case, the schedule does not fit all needs for all fliers, we wish we could make it work perfectly for all.

One final note, this is in stone in our book, it will not move despite any "campaign" to do so. We have tried to lay out our side of this, and even though some folks think we do not think out the plans of the Nats, we do. I hope you understand...

Marc
R.M. Gellart is offline Find More Posts by R.M. Gellart
Last edited by R.M. Gellart; Dec 20, 2011 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 07:52 PM
LSF V,LSF Secretary,AMA Lifer
Robglover's Avatar
Huntsville
Joined Oct 2003
2,077 Posts
Tom -

I'd like to add to this discussion.

F3J (with winches) last year had 54 entrants at the Nats, it is currently our fastest growing event. I expect it to do well again this year. I expect it to overtake TD at some point, but I've been wrong before.

We do base our decisions on actual data. It's hard to predict how well events will be supported in the future, but based on past results, placing XC over J would have resulted in fewer entries for XC. Yes, I realize that we also lose a few between XC and RES/Nost. It's a judgement call, made based on real world data by mere mortals who don't get paid to do the job. Placing XC sometime during the week would have left it with fewer participants as well, nearly as we could predict.

My advice is to determine your priorities and fly the plane. And be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

Bubba
Robglover is offline Find More Posts by Robglover
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 08:46 PM
Registered User
Afton VA
Joined Sep 2002
469 Posts
Thanks to both for some good clear answers. Since the AMA sets the dates and you have to work within those dates, it is amazing you can work things out as well as you do.

With the use of winches in the F3J format, it really opens it up to a lot more participants. Those that did it last year, really had a great time. It's an exciting event. How will you handle any major increase in participants? Will all still set up and launch at the same time? Will everyone need to own a smart phone for scoring?
tbroeski is offline Find More Posts by tbroeski
Last edited by tbroeski; Dec 21, 2011 at 09:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 20, 2011, 10:00 PM
LSF V,LSF Secretary,AMA Lifer
Robglover's Avatar
Huntsville
Joined Oct 2003
2,077 Posts
Tom -
J with winches at Nats may be flown using B winches, TD winches, or hand tow equipment. A big part of the reason that it's gained popularity so quickly is because folks can use equipment that they generally already have on hand. Teams share launch equipment, reducing the cost further. Most folks can find a few buddies to make a team, put a couple TD winches on the field, and use their TD planes and have a good couple days of flying.

We can handle increases in numbers of entrants by growing the number of pilots on each team. I hope we need to do that this year, as we did last year.

Yes, launches are all at the same time. That's part of the J event that we've kept, it works well and makes things exciting. We did not experience a bunch of mid airs on launch, the risk seems to have been overrated.

1 smart phone per team will suffice to enter the team's scores if somebody has one. I suppose you could also use an iPad, laptop, netbook, or some other device that gives you internet access. Otherwise, we will supply you with a pencil and a scorecard. In fact, every team gets a score sheet and enters all of their flight times and landing scores after each flight. It's good to have it on paper, sometimes things get entered incorrectly during the heat of battle. The phone does save you a walk to the score keepers tent after each flight.
Robglover is offline Find More Posts by Robglover
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2011, 02:48 AM
Registered User
Afton VA
Joined Sep 2002
469 Posts
Now it's much clearer. I thought you had to use F3B winches. So there's no limit to the type or power of the winch/launch, just the strength of the person holding the plane? Is it scored as a "team" or individually? How many teams do you think will be allowed?

For LSF contest participant requirements, is XC allowed? Since everyone on a team can fly, does everyone entered count as a "participant" or is it one "participant" per team? If there are more than 20 "people", would a first place count as an LSF V win? Or would there have to be 20 "teams".
tbroeski is offline Find More Posts by tbroeski
Last edited by tbroeski; Dec 21, 2011 at 03:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2011, 06:03 AM
Registered User
jtlsf5's Avatar
United States, CA, Folsom
Joined Jul 2007
2,518 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbroeski View Post
Now it's much clearer. I thought you had to use F3B winches. So there's no limit to the type or power of the winch/launch, just the strength of the person holding the plane? Is it scored as a "team" or individually? How many teams do you think will be allowed?

For LSF contest participant requirements, is XC allowed? Since everyone on a team can fly, does everyone entered count as a "participant" or is it one "participant" per team? If there are more than 20 "people", would a first place count as an LSF V win? Or would there have to be 20 "teams".
Tom,
You are making this much too complicated, and overthinking it to the nines. What in any of this makes you think J is scored as a team event? This isn't the FAI worlds with both individual and team competition, never has been. It is LSF/AMA's attempt to make the J format feasible in a TD world.

There is no "think" in number of teams allowed, its about real estate, logistics and number of registered participants. Coming from someone that has been at the Nats regularly I'm surprised that you even bother to ask about something so obvious.

Regarding XC, if you don't already know the answer to this, then give back your LSF V plaque. The devil's advocate approach to LSF tasks doesn't cut it. Like Bubba implied earlier on in this thread, if you want to run or change the system, then buck up, become an LSF board member and participate in the process. Sniping with cutesy questions won't work, nor is it appreciated.

JT (Outgoing LSF Board Member)
jtlsf5 is offline Find More Posts by jtlsf5
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion What is cross country soaring? PilotKeeg Cross Country Soaring 39 Apr 03, 2014 08:54 AM
Discussion Cross Country Soaring Distance World Record awilmunder Cross Country Soaring 172 Dec 06, 2013 08:28 AM
Discussion 2012 Electric Soaring Nats Ed Franz Electric Sailplanes 0 Dec 01, 2011 05:29 PM