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Old Jul 21, 2014, 08:15 PM
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Joined Sep 2012
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Have you already fixed your masts in the boat, if not I have seen where a person used brass tubing and fixed the tubing to the keel and incerted a spring in the bottom of the tubing so the mast sits on the spring .The spring was strong enough so when the rigging was taught the spring only collapsed half way so it left him enough room to push the mast down and remove the mast rigging. It sounds easy to fix up and I'll be refitting the Sultanas that way, along with my next sail boat.
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Old Jul 26, 2014, 07:24 PM
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Springfield, OH
Joined May 2008
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skibo - the masts are hinged. I had first thought about tension holding them in place in a retaining ring on the deck. But the size of everything, the weight of the ship, the square footage of the sails, and such, simply using rigging tension as pressure to hold in place would not be sufficient.

My plan is to do as Paratrooper did, transport the ship with the lower mast rigged in place so only the upper masts would need to be rigged at water side. However, I would still have the option to fully collapse the rigging as needed.
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Old Aug 03, 2014, 08:16 PM
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Springfield, OH
Joined May 2008
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Began the rudder today. Here is the blank cut out with some shaping started. The rudder is made out of 3/4 thick hardwood. Will need to be waterproofed. I'll decide the method that later.

My building fixture for the Brig over these many years has held the bow and stern in place with the waterline parallel to the base of the building fixture. To be able to do the rudder work, I am building a saddle cradle to hold the stern of the ship, making access to the stern for rudder work.
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Old Aug 15, 2014, 11:36 AM
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Springfield, OH
Joined May 2008
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Looking through pictures of my Brig build and I found these scupper pictures that I have not shared yet.

First the brass tube shaped was cut to length with one end cut at an angle. The other end was flared using an automotive brake-line flaring tool. Scupper was then epoxied in place.

Finally, the stern is free to work on installing the rudder and designing the steering mechanism.

Also attached a picture of inside the hull looking towards the stern to see some of the construction I used.
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Old Aug 24, 2014, 04:11 PM
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Springfield, OH
Joined May 2008
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Rudder work is progressing. The rudder was grooved on one end to fit the 1/4 brass rod. This rod will eventually be epoxied in place and also be pinned in place.

The rudder support block is cut from hardwood and has a combination of many angles. My angle gauge was put to good use in determining the angles. I set my band saw (50 degrees) to cut the block. The drill press was set(35 degrees) to drill out both the hole for the nylon bushing and the relief space for the rudder.

The rudder blank still needs the chatter groove. I am planning to make that groove on the deeper side to be able to fit a Lexan rudder extension for sailing. The rudder blank still needs to be profiled. I'll do the profiling after cutting in the chatter groove.

I think 1/4 brass rod will be study enough. Do you concur?
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Old Aug 24, 2014, 04:53 PM
Paratrooper
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Eubank Kentucky
Joined Nov 2007
877 Posts
Wow

All these photos reveal your craftsmanship. Very well done sire!
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Old Aug 24, 2014, 05:18 PM
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United States, MD, Severna Park
Joined Apr 2008
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Will there be drifts through the rudder post rod into the rudder?
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Old Aug 27, 2014, 06:04 PM
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Springfield, OH
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Originally Posted by Paratrooper View Post
All these photos reveal your craftsmanship. Very well done sire!
Knowing your craftsmanship from being with you and seeing your ship sailing and following your railroad construction, you have given me a high compliment - deeply appreciated!
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Old Aug 27, 2014, 06:16 PM
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Springfield, OH
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Originally Posted by JerryTodd View Post
Will there be drifts through the rudder post rod into the rudder?
Yes I will be drilling in "drifts".
Your design, attached below, has been very informative for me.
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Old Sep 03, 2014, 05:54 PM
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Springfield, OH
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Some more progress with the rudder assembly.

Lexan insert - need to decide how to keep in place while sailing, yet be removable for display. Considering removable pins through the rudder side into the tabs or rare earth magnets inserted into the tabs and rudder.

Delrin rudder support - drilled at 20 degrees to match rudder post angle. Still needs final shaping. I'll do that when I am fitting it for mounting. Will use screws into keel to keep the ability to remove rudder assembly if needed.

One of the last things I will do is cut the brass rod to length. Leaving the extra to give me fiddle room especially at the top end for rudder mechanism installation. (i.e. leaving room for mistakes)

Once all is ready for assembly - I'll knurl the brass rod and epoxy in place. Then I'll drill the holes for the drifts and install them. Simulated hinges will come later.
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Old Sep 03, 2014, 08:27 PM
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United States, MN, Brainerd
Joined Oct 2004
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Lee,
Great build. It seems like so long ago that we all met in Ohio. Great to see that you are back at it.
Attached pic shows some of my thoughts on the rudder, based on my experiences with Syren.
I've found that the scale rigging lines and even fine brass parts are generally plenty strong to take all the sailing forces at this scale. But ply, strip and sheet wood parts and servo gears seem to be the weakest parts of the whole model.
So these suggestions for the rudder, since it takes a lot of force when sailing and a lot more when it gets inadvertently bumped during transport and launching/recovery.
See the pic...
- Even a slight space/slot can catch weeds, fishing line, etc., and it will catch that stuff...for sure. Suggest changing the lower rudder profile per the yellow line to eliminate the catch point (and address the next point, too.).
- At launch/recovery in the shallows, any rudder profile below the stern keel will bump bottom (especially when the model is backed down or pulled up an angled ramp). Keep the trailing lower tip of the rudder extension high as possible.
- I've done the "insert tab into slot" thing - not for rudders, but other stuff. The thin sides of the slot tend to give and break. Tab sizes you show will not, I think, take the lateral forces on the rudder. The tab probably won't break if thick enough, but the thin wood on the sides of the slot will likely crack per yellow lines. A possible alternate approach is shown. Requires only one small hole thru the rudder for each of the tab sets - one tab on each side of the rudder. I would line the holes in the wood rudder with brass tube or use some sort of reinforcing grommet to line the hole. The thru bolt&nut would compress the rudder ext. tabs to grip the scale rudder very securely.
- Rudder bumps can wreck the rudder servo. Rig a "servo saver" of some sort into the rudder linkage. On Syren, I used about 2" of bungee at the end of the rudder control lines where they attach on each side of the control arm. They give plenty of flex to take hard hits but are still plenty stiff to hold rudder position. I also disconnect the on-deck tiller linkage when transporting.
- The extension size looks like plenty big enough. Syren extension size ratio looks very similar to what you show, and Syren can be turned on a dime at the +/- 30 deg suggested travel. I have rudder travel and servo speed reduced to keep rudder action more controlled.
Just some thoughts - of course, go your own way.
You're building a beautiful model. And I envy the large scale - very cool!
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Old Sep 07, 2014, 03:53 PM
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Springfield, OH
Joined May 2008
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Dan,

I easily recall the day of sailing at Caesar Creek. Meeting you and Paratrooper was a very good day, making some remarkable memories, and beginning good friendships!

Thank you for taking time to help me along! Here are some dimensions to help visualize the size of the rudder.

The rudder is hardwood 0.71 inches thick. The lexan is 0.20 inches thick.
The walls of the rudder where the tabs will leverage against wood are almost 0.25 inch thick on each side. The chatter groove is deep and the lexan insert is supported by more than just the tabs. See the picture. The black lines show approximately the amount of insert supported by the wood of the rudder. Still think the tabs may potentially tear out of the rudder wood?
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Old Sep 07, 2014, 06:38 PM
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United States, MN, Brainerd
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevWarBrig View Post
Dan,

I easily recall the day of sailing at Caesar Creek. Meeting you and Paratrooper was a very good day, making some remarkable memories, and beginning good friendships!

Thank you for taking time to help me along! Here are some dimensions to help visualize the size of the rudder.

The rudder is hardwood 0.71 inches thick. The lexan is 0.20 inches thick.
The walls of the rudder where the tabs will leverage against wood are almost 0.25 inch thick on each side. The chatter groove is deep and the lexan insert is supported by more than just the tabs. See the picture. The black lines show approximately the amount of insert supported by the wood of the rudder. Still think the tabs may potentially tear out of the rudder wood?
Answer: Nope
Remember Gilda Radner/Rosanna Rosanadanna? "Never mind."
Your plan is lookin' good.
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Old Sep 08, 2014, 09:20 AM
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Springfield, OH
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Originally Posted by DanL View Post
Answer: Nope
Remember Gilda Radner/Rosanna Rosanadanna? "Never mind."
Your plan is lookin' good.
Thanks, Dan!

I am keeping in mind your thoughts about snagging weeds in the water. Also I had not considered bumping the bottom during launch and landing. (Launch cart design still to come especially with a ship around 11 feet long overall and weighing 150 plus pounds) Some redesign of the rudder profile does seem in order. That is the one thing that makes scratch-building interesting, since I made it, I can make it again.

My RC cars had servo savers on the steering. I may enlarge their design for the rudder. I plan to use a Hitec 815BB sail control servo for the rudder.
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Old Sep 08, 2014, 11:57 AM
Paratrooper
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Eubank Kentucky
Joined Nov 2007
877 Posts
Jeff, surely your ship is going to exceed 150 pounds. Ours had a removable keel but even with that off it weighed about 75 pounds, maybe a little more. You will have to have some internal ballast to bring the hull down in the water and even with a removable keel you won't really have enough with just the removable keel.

Your brig will be twice the size of Dan's, but remember it will have 8 times the volume if my Jethro Bodine ciphering is close to my fifth grade mathematical genius.

That is my thought anyway, open to rebuke and correction. Dan, your turn.
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