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Old Feb 04, 2013, 04:18 PM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
RumRunner_1492's Avatar
Dayton, OH
Joined Feb 2006
418 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap_n_Dave View Post
Here are some links regarding the discrimination faced by various ethnic groups that emigrated to the United States over the years:

http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.c...o-America.html
http://history.state.gov/milestones/...eseImmigration
http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroo...seind/immgnts/
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook28.asp
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum...9.03.06.x.html
http://www.idexer.com/articles/immigration_response.htm

I could go on posting links but I won't. The United States has a long and checkered history of hostility towards immigrants ... legal or not.

The parents of these guys were immigrants ... ostensibly "not wanted" as reflected in the history books.

No, they are not. The "not wanting <insert group name here>" is what drives the legislation, resulting in the laws that define legal immigration. Again well documented in the history books.
Not every immigrant is unwanted or discriminated against. You are painting with a very broad brush. You seem to be talking about discrimination and racism. Those are not the topics at hand. You are also trying to compare people who moved here legally with those here illegally.

You have absolutely no idea if their parents were immigrants or not and if they were discriminated or not. You are simply making up a story and trying to pass it off as fact. You seem to be trying to lump a bunch of people from different groups all into one. That isn't how it works. My ancestors were from Ireland, Scottland and Germany who came here legally. There are not stories being passed down of discrimination or hatered against them. My great grandmother was 103 and passed away 3 years ago. She spoke of the titanic sinking but not decrimination against any of our family.

They are very much 2 different things. We are a country of laws. People broke those laws to enter our country. They are here illegally. That is completely different than someone being a citizen or being here as a legal immigrant. People should not be rewarded for breaking our laws. We did that once and it helped nothing. If someone is productive then allow them to get in line for citizenship. If they are not then get them out of our country as fast as possible. Non productive illegal aliens are and will be a drag on society.

I have not seen anyone on here claiming people shouldn't be able to immigrate to our country legally. Have you?
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 04:42 PM
Circles in Lift
bwanajim's Avatar
Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
425 Posts
None of this rationalization changes the fact that illegal immigrants broke the law. If you don't think the law is fair or just, then work to change it. But until it's changed, we should abide by it.

Whether or not people are an asset or a drag on society is irrelevant if they are here illegally. If people in other countries think that our immigration laws are unjust, then they are free to protest from their own home countries.

One question that I have asked repeatedly on this forum, and one that has never been answered by those who support illegal immigration is how they feel about the fact that no other countries have the kind of open border policies that they want the US to have with Mexico. Why is the United States the sole target of their ire while they say nothing about how they'd be treated in Mexico if they tried to emigrate there illegally?
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 04:52 PM
Circles in Lift
bwanajim's Avatar
Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
425 Posts
Exactly. I can't understand why anyone is being accused of not welcoming immigrants. Citizens on both sides of the aisle welcome immigrants. All we ask is that immigrants abide by the law of our land. It's that simple, folks. Whether or not someone is productive, an asset to society is completely irrelevant if they are here illegally. These people have knowingly and wantonly violated United States Federal law.

Again, once we start picking and choosing which laws we will obey or not obey on our own, rather than doing the hard work of getting legislation introduced and passed, we are on a path to ruin. This whole issue is not about immigration at all. It's about whether or not we are a nation of laws.

Once we abandon the civic and economic stability that a nation of laws provides, a breakdown in civil order is inevitable. Once that happens, all bets are off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492 View Post
They are very much 2 different things. We are a country of laws. People broke those laws to enter our country. They are here illegally. That is completely different than someone being a citizen or being here as a legal immigrant. People should not be rewarded for breaking our laws. We did that once and it helped nothing. If someone is productive then allow them to get in line for citizenship. If they are not then get them out of our country as fast as possible. Non productive illegal aliens are and will be a drag on society.

I have not seen anyone on here claiming people shouldn't be able to immigrate to our country legally. Have you?
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 06:37 PM
Circles in Lift
bwanajim's Avatar
Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
425 Posts
This is one thing we can agree on, Shcrott. Investing in neighboring countries and helping them become more successful is always a good idea. In the case of Mexico, as you say, a more prosperous economy there would certainly reduce the pressure on the border.

On the other hand, Spain has been doing just that with Morocco and, for the last 20 years, the policy has shown great promise. The main roads from Tangiers going south toward Fez have gotten very good and industrial zones have popped up all over the place. However, it's all about to be for naught. AQIM has been making steady progress northward. Already, the Spanish Sahara and some of my favorite places near the Algerian border are getting to be no-go zones. It won't be long before popular places like Ouarzazate will be compromised, and even Marrakech won't be far behind.

Back to Mexico, I draw the line when helping our neighbor impinges on our rights. A while back, during the Fast and Furious scandal, Hillary Clinton and Janet Napolitano were trying to make the case that we should implement more gun control in the US in order to help stem the violence in Mexico. That is over the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrott View Post
Invest in the country that joins the border, make it stable, give it a strong security apparatus, a strong economy and you have a save border.
Canada secures its and our border, it is a very nice and beautifull country that shares most of our values. If we could help Mexico to become a Canada, we would have no Problems.
But it would need our help considering that it is not the US but Mexico, but a strong and wealthy Mexico, would not only be a great trading partner but a security partner
By the way Canada is our greatest trading partner.

That would be my approach, cooperation and integration instead of separation.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 08:35 PM
Kraut
Dolores, Colorado
Joined Dec 2007
1,590 Posts
I agree with you. It is always a risk, no return guarantied.
I have known Mexico and Central and Soutamerica a long time, all my live.
My Grandma fathers side was Argentine, have relatives all over Soutamerica.
Interesting story, but noy here.
Mexico was allways a country with huge social differance and with a racial map.
Noth a more Latino population, towards the South a ever larger Native population.
Mexico has always been so to speak the backyard of the US and the history between the US and Mexico aint one of happy partners.
Mexico was at its best a not well respcted junior partner, looked down on.

When with the help of the US ( a very well done job ) the Cartells in Columbia got broken, the Cartells moved.
They had literally Billions, with which they moved into Mexico.
The huge amount of cash that was spent to undermine every Goverment Structure in the North, made the Central Goverment helples.
On top of some of those money were spent to finance some of the unrest in the Southern Mt and around Oaka.
The US hunger for ilegal drugs and the money made by it, did the same to Mexico, what it had done to Columbia before.
Destroyed the country.
Right now Mexico has a civil war going on, but this one is about Drug Terretories against the Central Goverment.
We have to admit that the origin of the monies is the US and because of the billions made every year from US customers, the Cartells are abel, to dominate 50% of the country.
We are, well the drug users actually, are part and a reason for the war in Mexico.

Sadly we have been ocupied on the other side of the globe and realy missed out what happend in our back yard.

The Mexico I know and the Mexicans, are neither filthy, lazzy, overly corrupt or incompetent, but if you put Millions on the table and have many millions more available you can buy a country, any country.

With Morroc and so on I am not quiet sure if your prediction will pan out. I think Europe is kinde geting the drift.
France is in Mali and has support from other European Nations, if Morroco would be threatened my guess would be, that Spain and with the help of European Nations would stand up.
Do not underestimate, France, Belgium, Spain or any other European Nation that has close ties to Africa, especialy those with a Colonial History in Africa.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 10:48 PM
Alarm Bells Continuing!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Oct 2001
276 Posts
Party on Garth!
Quote:
Consumers have been spending more on gasoline than they have in nearly three decades.

With pump prices at their highest level on record for this time of year, the stage is set for an even greater climb in gasoline prices and expenditures than in 2012. Retail gasoline prices have surged 17 cents in a week to top $3.50 a gallon on average, posting the highest prices on record for the beginning of February.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100431822

Obama extended approval of the Keystone Pipeline by another six months, if anyone missed it on the MSM
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 06:39 PM
Kraut
Dolores, Colorado
Joined Dec 2007
1,590 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot 48 View Post
Party on Garth!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100431822

Obama extended approval of the Keystone Pipeline by another six months, if anyone missed it on the MSM
And you realy believe that a drop of the Keystone stuff stays in the US. The pipeline end in the free trade zone refinaries, and goes from their onto the tankers, tax free naturally.
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 06:49 PM
Registered User
Joined Sep 2010
155 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrott View Post
And you realy believe that a drop of the Keystone stuff stays in the US. The pipeline end in the free trade zone refinaries, and goes from their onto the tankers, tax free naturally.
Oil is a commodity, traded on a world market. It doesn't matter.

What does matter is the waste of using ethanol in fuel and the environmental restrictions on refining that are causing more and more of them to close, creating a higher demand and price for gasoline.
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 06:52 PM
Alarm Bells Continuing!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Oct 2001
276 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrott View Post
And you realy believe that a drop of the Keystone stuff stays in the US. The pipeline end in the free trade zone refinaries, and goes from their onto the tankers, tax free naturally.
The market will determine where it goes. I don't care. What I do care about is more jobs, manufacturing and revenues for Americans.

Obama is stuck on stupid on this issue.
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