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Old Oct 03, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Fuel for older model ignition engine?

Anyone know the ratio of oil to gasoline for an old late forties model ignition engine? Was castor oil the preffered lubricant as well?

Also what were the more reliable and robust brand names of engines then. I think I want to try an old ignition engine even if I have to update the points with a electronic trigger to gain reliability.Unleaded gas or colman stove gas is adaquate I imagine?
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Old Oct 03, 2012, 08:06 PM
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United States, SD
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I am a little confused here. Is this a gasoline engine with a spark plug or a glow engine with a glow plug?
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Old Oct 03, 2012, 10:43 PM
Zor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymore View Post
Anyone know the ratio of oil to gasoline for an old late forties model ignition engine? Was castor oil the preffered lubricant as well?

Also what were the more reliable and robust brand names of engines then. I think I want to try an old ignition engine even if I have to update the points with a electronic trigger to gain reliability.Unleaded gas or colman stove gas is adaquate I imagine?
barrymore.

I am a bit cofused also.
You are talking about ratio of oil to gasoline. That can only be an engine using gasoline and not methanol (glow fuel).

Then you write "late forties model ignition engine".
Engines using glow fuel also have ignition.

In the late forties (like 1945 to 1949) the glow fuel was using castor oil. There was not much if any communications with other groups.

I co-founded the "Montreal Model Bugs" club in the mid 1950s and we were formulating our own glow fuel. We used castor oil of those days in various proportion. Generally 5% up to 15% castor.

All engines were small. OK Cubs at .049,0.051,.074.
McCoy up to 0.35, K&B up to 0.45 .
The K&B 0.45 was the first engine I used that had throttle control. All were using glow fuel.

Your second paragraph seem to confirm again that you are talking about gasoline engines.

Well built contact point ignitions are very reliable.
In fact I had electronic capacitor discharge systems fail for me three times at over $100.00 cost each time.

Hope this gives you a bit of an idea and at least partly answers your case.

Zor
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Old Oct 04, 2012, 06:56 AM
Thermal Junkie
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Originally Posted by barrymore View Post
Anyone know the ratio of oil to gasoline for an old late forties model ignition engine?
If running gasoline the standard is 3 to 1 for most. Brown Jr recommended 4 to 1 as did Forster. If running methanol and castor I use a 4 to 1 mix and it works fine.

Quote:
Was castor oil the preffered lubricant as well?
With gasoline 70 wt. automotive engine oil. With methanol you can use castor.

Quote:
Also what were the more reliable and robust brand names of engines then.
Super Cylone, Ohlsson& Rice, Forster,Brown Jr.,Anderson Spitfire,
Atwood, Bunch,Herkimer,Vivell,Atom, are a few of the more popular ones. They come in sizes from .09 to .99. There are a couple larger ones such as the Avion.


Quote:
I think I want to try an old ignition engine even if I have to update the points with a electronic trigger to gain reliability.
No need to change the points. Do however get a electronic igntion module such as Larry Davidson's or Marv Stern's if your going to fly an old sparker. You can use a good old coil such as Smith or AeroSpark or Larry sells a nice small light one that works great.

Reliabilty is increased by using the modules as the points become a switch in the electronic circuit. This eliminates the need for a condensor and does away with electric point noise that would cause radio interfernace. For flying with R/C you should also have a high tension lead with a 10K resistor at the spark plug end. I've had hundereds of flight with these setups and not a glitch ever. Stories of unreliability from the old days came mostly from the batteries of the old days. The use of external booster starting batteries was common but they're not needed with modern batteries. A 3 cell 1800- 2200 maH Nimh pack or a one cell lipo of the same size will give you all the juice need
Still, the old adage of good batteries and clean points is a good one to follow.
If just bench running you can use standard coil/condensor setup with a regualr high tension lead.

Quote:
]Unleaded gas or colman stove gas is adaquate I imagine?
I run SEF94 or methanol and BeNol ( no nitromethane) depending on the class I'm flying. Don't use methanol based fuel with the old plastic tanks as they will melt. In a pinch you can use pump gas and the plastic won't get messed up as there isn't enough alcohol to affect the plastic on most tanks. Methanol and castor runs a little cooler make the engines a tad easier to start and they make a bit more power,but the fuel consumption is more due to the difference in available energy between the two fuels.

Always remember to retard the spark before trying to flip the prop over, if you don't the first time you will the second. Starting otherwise is the pretty much same as modern engines. Flip and choke to prime with spark off, turn on spark then flip the prop with authority. When you advance the spark the mixture will richen so you'll have to lean her down just a tad beyond the point where she stops "four cycling". Hope this helps some.
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Old Oct 04, 2012, 09:01 AM
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If you really want to go back in time, gasoline and 60 weight motor oil was the standard, can not remember the ratio. With the old condenser, points and coil, RF interference was a problem and you needed a HAM license to fly RC and several pounds of batteries in both the plane and the transmitter.
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Old Oct 04, 2012, 10:14 AM
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Thanks for the information gentleman. I just aquired a 1947 .24 super hurricane. I remembered it as perhaps being the only model engine ever manufactured in Canada. In Toronto my old home town to be more specific.. We now reside on the east coast ofCanada..It actually arrived in the mail less than an hour ago and is almost mint. Or at least even better than the pictures that where themselves pretty good.

After I initially purchased it started to wonder if I might fly an old ignition engine in an old time model. Not the hurricane for several reasons.

I had forgotten about the potential for electrical interferance on the radio equipment with an ignition engine but see that an electronic trigger circuit to replace the points is available. Is the 2.4ghz radio gear also suseptable to the interferance from points? I guess one could do ground range checks with the engine running.

Nitro methane fuel is both getting expensive and no longer really available easily locally. So I have also aquired a diesel engine or two over time.My flying sites locally are many and very convienient. So the time has come to once more get active again.

One flying site is the beach when the tide is out right in front of our cottage. Although electric only there because of the noise factor when other cottage users are present. Or a well muffled diesel perhaps..Another site was my own back yard at the house that has very large fields adjoining it. The neighbours fields are still clear

Unfortunatly the tree growth on our property since I last used it is now prohibitive. So it is the soccer field area a couple of miles from home unless I fire up the chainsaw I guess. The bottom line is I want to get flying again. So much has changed since I last was really active. I would have given my eye teeth to have had access to flying sites like I have available to me today in times past. The downside is for all practical purposes activity has dropped off to almost zero in our local area.
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Old Oct 04, 2012, 07:27 PM
TigreJohn
United States, CA, Corona
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The ratio that was recommended at that time for spark ignition engines was 3:1 gasoline:70 weight petroleum oil. If you used 90 weight Rear Axle Differential oil, you could drop it to 3.5:1. Engines at that did not use rod bearings ( the critical element). The big bitch with either ratio was plug fouling so running rich was a no-no.
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Old Oct 04, 2012, 11:28 PM
Zor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodney View Post
If you really want to go back in time, gasoline and 60 weight motor oil was the standard, can not remember the ratio. With the old condenser, points and coil, RF interference was a problem and you needed a HAM license to fly RC and several pounds of batteries in both the plane and the transmitter.
Hello Rodney,

You are correct. I had my ham license and built my own transmitters and receivers.

Attached a picture of the batteries for the on board receiver.
Another set of batteries to provide plus and minus 3 volts was used for the servos. No need to post pictures of ordinary 1.5 volt cells.

Zor
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Old Oct 05, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jjkupinski View Post
The ratio that was recommended at that time for spark ignition engines was 3:1 gasoline:70 weight petroleum oil. If you used 90 weight Rear Axle Differential oil, you could drop it to 3.5:1.
3:1 was for some but not all engines, 4:1 was OEM recommended for some also. Gear oil is not engine oil and has sulphur compunds as well as other additives for hypoid gear applications. I would never tell someone to use gear oil in any model engine and can't think of any application where it would be called for in a model engine.

Quote:
Engines at that did not use rod bearings ( the critical element)
Many of the old engines did have bearing in the big end of the conrod. Right off top of my head I know for a fact O&R, Super Cyke and Anderson Spitifre had bearings. Brown Jr. did not as well as many of the cheap "slag" engines.


Quote:
. The big bitch with either ratio was plug fouling so running rich was a no-no.
In 40 years of flying the old sparkers I've never had this happen. Maybe running gear oil has caused this. All my engines are clean as could be inside with minimal deposits from running a good grade of non deteregent engine oil when using gasoline.

Sorry
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Old Oct 06, 2012, 11:13 AM
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Thanks for listing the brands of engines that had connecting rod bushings in your post. The hurricane I aquired does not have any . I needless to say will keep those brand names in the forefront in my current search for a "runner" sparker.

That no rod bushings used in the hurricane is fine by me as I knew it before purchasing . To have survived 65 years in the condition it is in plus it is perhaps the only production run engine ever manufactured in Canada. That is as far as I am aware. It possibly is deserving of continuing retirement.

As a note of interest apparently runing a sparker on glow fuel does create greater stresses in these older engines. So conversion to glow plugs is perhaps not that good of an ideal. Unless perhaps some early engines were built pretty rugged. In fact there may be a brand or two back then that really were overbuilt. I have not verified the information in this paragraph but picked it up somewhere or other. I really think I am going to enjoy getting a sparker into the air next spring.

Is methanol usually readily available? I have never looked for it. I still have about a gallon of castor oil in the wifes freezer. Although other lubricants may be fine I still preffer castor oil. The castor on hand is for my mixing of diesel fuel.

One other thought I had was to servo control the spark advance lever. At this point I do not know how effective it would be at moderating rpm. I can design a rube goldburg type of linkage to do it. A simple torque tube type should suffice. Anyone know perhaps how many rpm might be dropped without getting so far back the engine quits?? I imagine the ideal it is far from new to do this?
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Old Jan 23, 2014, 02:56 PM
hihihihihihi
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lagrange, ky
Joined Jul 2007
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I know this thread is olllllllllldddddddddd but... what is sef94 and where do you get it?
thanks,
matt
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Old Feb 10, 2014, 04:43 PM
Hay Pilot
United States, TX, Fayetteville
Joined Mar 2013
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SEF 94 is Small Engine Fuel (94 octane), sold by VP Racing Fuel. It is designed for weed eaters and other small engine machinery and does not contain alcohol. Expensive at $8/qt. but easier on our gas engines. I just got some at my local NAPA Auto Parts store.
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