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Old Jan 27, 2009, 01:33 PM
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belouder's Avatar
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Flaperons vs spoilerons

Hey,

I'm rehabbing a CR Aircraft Blazer (60' sloper, precursor to the Fun One) and I'm programming the radio (JR 9303). 3 channels-left and right aileron and elevator. I can't remember how I used to fly this thing and I'm looking for input regarding flaperons vs spoilerons for landing.

I can get about 25 degrees down for flaps or 45 degrees up for spoilers on the ailerons. Which is a better landing control device? Is it better to be able to slow it down (flaps) or get it to drop out of the sky (spoilers)?

Thanks,
BK
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Old Jan 27, 2009, 01:59 PM
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Spiolerons allow for better aileron authority. Don't forget the elevator compensation.
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Old Jan 27, 2009, 02:32 PM
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Oh full span down ailerons will slow it nicely. Mind you make sure you get a nice long first flight in. Chances of a second will be slim to none.

Flapperons and spoilerons perform different functions.
Flapperons are usually coupled with elevator as a master mix and the offset will be small (1/8" or so). Elevators up, flapperons down etc.
Spoilerons are to dump lift on approach (don't be trying to fly circuits or even final turns) and de-camber the wing for landing. Not so effective at slowing but will improve vertical descent. Need to be compensated by elevator to raise the model nose and slow to a flare for touchdown.
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Old Jan 27, 2009, 02:37 PM
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Spoilerons, for sure. I can't recall which way my Fun-1 went for elevator compensation, but with big spoileron throws the plane could really slow down. The way to dial the compensation in is to lauch with your landing mode up on the screen, with the dark cursor over the elevator value. Get some altitude, hit the spoilerons, and adjust as necessary. You might have to take a couple of trys at it to get it just right. You're looking for a sinky, tail-low approach.

You might also set your plane up to have a small amount of down-flap deflection for climbing in weak lift, say 1-2 mm. I have most of my 60"ers set up like that on my 9303. If you use the ACRO setting you can really quickly set up a 3-function plane.

On the 9303 you can set everything up on the 3-way switch, with up being climb mode, mid-neutral, and down-land. I usually dial in a .2 secod delay on my landing modes to be a little easier on the servos.

Another mix I use a lot that's good for a 60"er is mixing 5% throttle to elevator. You can "close" the throttle and the plane will go slightly nose up and slow down, or push the throttle forward and the plane will accelerate. The value will vary depending on your elevator rates, but anywhere from 2.5%-5% seems to work. Just use the free mixes for that.

The nice thing about that mix is you can tailor the plane to the lift youre in- in heavy lift push in some down trim, and you don't have to take your right thumb off the stick to do it.
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Old Jan 27, 2009, 02:38 PM
Flagstaff, AZ
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I use both on my Le Fish. I can go about 35 each way. I use the Throttle stick for control.

I often use spoilers to control my descent into the LZ and then Flaps to kill the air speed... neutralizing the spoilers/flaps just before impact.

If the wind is gusty (or landing in a rotor) I just use Spoilers since the plane is less "stally" and has better aileron control (as said above).

Make sure you take the time to dial the elevator compensation. It will make landings much easier.

Are you setting up "snap flaps?" I don't know your aircraft, but I find that most gliders get more grip in their turns/loops with 5-10 of snap flap.

Have fun.

Dawson
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Old Jan 29, 2009, 01:18 PM
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Mt Annan Sydney Australia
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yep another vote for spoilerons here. I use them on my flapless carbon bird mixed to the throttle for landing works a treat but i also have a small amount of Chamber on the switches only about and 1/8" of aileron droop for lighter air ,Flaperons are fine if you have a huge rudder to compensate for 99% loss of roll control but still i wouldnt reccomend trying to fly circuits with it on straight final approach maybe not not much more.
SteveW who flapped the rons one to many times
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:12 PM
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Bullet Flaps or Spoilers

OK, here's the plane:
Fuselage is 29.5" wingspan is 45.75"
2 servos, Ruder, Elevator, 1 servo per aileron.


Flying site/Conditions:
900' cliff line, semi-gentle slop, with Dynamic Wind. Wing is usually strong enough for Tandem-Para gliding. So 15-20mph winds, average, wind is usually straight in, or a bit out of the south. Photo shows the Park, with the northern end on the left.


Question is:
With this type of flying site, would I be better off using Flaperons or Spoilerons? the Bullet is a fast mover, (hence the name) and with the Dynamic lift that the cliff line produces, I'm really at a loss as to which to use. I've read multiple threads on several websites... yes, I understand that Flaperons can cause a stall. However, I need to slow the plane down on approach, as the park can get rather crowded and we sometimes have to dodge around onlookers to land.

Landings are usually cross-wind, which is why I re-designed the fuselage from a solid Stabilizer to having a working Rudder.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm using a Dx8 Radio.

Also, with Flaperons, you use down-elevator, Spoilerons up-elevator... is this correct?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 07:33 PM
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It's easy to program both with your radio and see which you like better. As Dawson said, different settings for different situations. My slope radio has the throttle stick spring loaded to center and mixed for flaperons to the back and spoilerons forward for manual control. The flap switch has the same but with elevator compensation mixed in. Works fine on the Stinger 45 and LeFishes. Yes, down elevator with flaperons and vice versa.

Try everything with plenty of altitude before you commit the plane to the dirt side of the flying area.

I just upgraded my old DX7 which I had also sping loaded the throttle on to the DX8. It was super easy to spring the throttle stick on the 8 as it is designed to be able to swap modes. Mixes are very easy and triple rates are handy for some instances. I filled the 20 spots up on the DX7 so having 30 and the SD card was mandatory.

I also have all my full house ships on a 9503. I have another DX8 for power planes and helis.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:17 AM
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USA, WA, Graham
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I find with my smaller, faster ships and the ones without ailerons or flaps (CR Contender, Mach 1, Stingeron, and a Joe Cormier PSS) that hard S turns on approach work for me. Less messing around with the radio and more just flying the plane. Especially with the PSS, (no choice on the twisties) at about 68" and 6.5 lbs I don't want to think about anything but the sticks or worry about anything weird happening. This way the plane acts the same from launch to landing. Don't get me wrong, I use crow on my F3X stuff (I'm not against glider functions). Just the way I like to land these type planes.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:03 AM
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mr.GFC:

I think the addition of the rudder may be all you need to control your landings. On a slope like yours, rounded top with little to no rotor, you should be able to a standard landing pattern.

This is how I would "approach' a landing...

Take a few pass across the slope. If the wind is not directly straight in, your ground speed should be slower in one direction. That is the direction you want to be flying on your second cross wind approach... to final.

So, if the wind is slightly from the right side... your landing pattern should be like this. Take a cross-wind pass from along the edge of the slope from right to left. Fly away from yourself a moderate distance. When you are ready, turn down-wind; do short down-wind leg to just past the lip of the slope; then turn cross-wind and fly towards yourself. Use this leg to control your speed for the final approach. You can use a varying "crab" angles to let your glider scuff and/or let her drift further off downwind for the final approach. As you approach the LZ, turn up wind to land. If you judged things correctly she should land just right. If you are too "hot" just fly through the LZ and try the pattern again.

After you have done a few of these you will find that you can shorten up the pattern quite a bit... impressing your friends!

Dawson
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsonh View Post
Mr.GFC:
If you are too "hot" just fly through the LZ and try the pattern again.
Dawson
1st problem is, this plane always comes in 'hot'.
2nd, I don't have a problem with the landing pattern, we always approach from the Northern end. This being said, you really can't see it in the photo, but there are 2 areas that produce a bit of rotor, so we have to get in close to the sidewalk.
This produces 2 additional hazards. People scattered randomly on the grass all over the park and the other being either the signs or the trashcan mounted in the middle of the grass. Avoiding the trashcan is simple enough (I've clipped it once, ) It's the speed of this plane that I need to burn off.

I've set the radio up so that it's got flaperons and spoilerons. I'm going to work with it this Sat. to get the elevator dialed in to the correct amount. I'll be able to do this with the plane running out off the face of the cliffs with enough altitude to recover, should there be and problems.

The amount of dynamic wind that this site produces, as well as where it produces more after it crests.... the walls and houses at the end of the park, burning off the speed and altitude isn't easy to do, with the 2 pockets of rotor that are present. If you search for 'Pz Ghandi, Lima, Lima Region, Peru' in google maps, you'll see what I mean. You can see where the signs are, the areas that produce the rotor, and the fact that there's secondary dynamic lift produced close to the sidewalk...

The pilots that fly the big 2-3m gliders with flaps and/or speed breaks have the same issues. Unfortunately, my Spanish hasn't reached the point that I can get advice from them... I've seen at least 3 of the big gliders crack up on landing in the last year and these guys are experienced.

Thanks for the suggestions though...
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:08 PM
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Joined Feb 2002
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Learn how do the pop and drop! Flaperon causes loss of control which might be worse than coming in hot if there are people everywhere. Spoileron doesnt slow you down it just makes the plane sink faster. So the best option is learn to land.

The pop and drop approach works well on hills with very limited landing areas. Once mastered you can land in tiny areas. You fly WAY WAY down the hill, then make a steep approach which will bleed off all your speed. The idea is to have the plane just about stall right as you crest the top of the ridge.. Then you plop it down at your feet. It's easy once you learn it. The biggest mistake most noobies make is they don't go anywhere near far enough down the hill on approach. You need to go WAY WAY down below the edge. If you get good at this you can actually catch the plane.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:43 PM
Flagstaff, AZ
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USA, AZ, Flagstaff
Joined Mar 2003
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Hmm... rotor is a problem using a standard landing pattern... and it looks like you can't go way back to land behind the rotor. I still wonder if you could slow down by using a big crab angle in your cross-wind approach. Also on your down wind turn... use more rudder so you do a flat turn instead of carving a turn (which usually speeds you up).


One style of landing we use in rotor prone areas (like on the coast) is the "pop and drop" style landing. You stay out in front of the rotor the whole time.

The idea behind the pop and drop... is to fly (way) below the lip of the slope; then pull up and do a flattish stall turn right at the edge of the lip so you gliders, stalls, drifts back to the LZ and settles down with a soft plop. The trick is to fly low enough so when you pull back up to the lip you have burnt off all your energy. Your rudder will be helpful with this type of landing since it helps you do a flat stall turn. You might even be able to do a hand catch! This kind of landing sounds sort of crazy; but it works! Practice going low and pulling up to see how it feels before trying an actual landing.

Regarding flaps vs spoilers...

I find that when I spoil the wing I get reduced lift; the glider comes down but may not necessarily slow down all that much. The glider will approach the landing in a nose up orientation.

When I flap the wing the glider slows down a lot; is more prone to stall; and approaches the landing in a more nose down orientation.

As a result I often use spoilers for getting to the LZ and flaps to soften the landing... just at the last second or two.

Good luck!

Dawson
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:45 PM
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dual pop and drops... that is so funny! Brian was typing faster than me. Do what he says. He is the master.

Dawson
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:58 PM
Feeling FrSky
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United States, CA, Santa Barbara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TFLG View Post
Learn how do the pop and drop! Flaperon causes loss of control which might be worse than coming in hot if there are people everywhere. Spoileron doesnt slow you down it just makes the plane sink faster. So the best option is learn to land.

The pop and drop approach works well on hills with very limited landing areas. Once mastered you can land in tiny areas. You fly WAY WAY down the hill, then make a steep approach which will bleed off all your speed. The idea is to have the plane just about stall right as you crest the top of the ridge.. Then you plop it down at your feet. It's easy once you learn it. The biggest mistake most noobies make is they don't go anywhere near far enough down the hill on approach. You need to go WAY WAY down below the edge. If you get good at this you can actually catch the plane.
Brian we should really film a video of your various landing techniques. You truly are a master of the dark arts.

Steve
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