SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Oct 24, 2012, 08:26 AM
Moving Parts
ChopperJack's Avatar
United States, MS, Columbus
Joined May 2011
1,428 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
I would say any bearing oil would work. It seems like petrol / synthetic oil blends work best at getting into the bearing. At least that is what the Scorpion oil is i think. Extreme makes a bearing oil too with "titanium particles" i have never used it. But like i said, I'm sure any bearing oil will be fine. Again, the only reason i advocate the Scorpion oil is, well. One, they are a legit mfg of large electric motors. I think they would know a thing or two about lubricating bearings. Two, the scorpion oil says on the instructions/label that it has been tested with lots of plastics and polymers and has not shown any deterioration or damage from the oil. It also says it won't be ejected if you don't over apply it. Plus it's made for bearings 100% so you know it will seep into the bearing at least. Thick oil may not. I've been told you can use a low viscosity synthetic motor oil just fine. Low viscosity so it can seep in. I don't know the weights or anything to look for though. I would assume a low # oil though. like 0w30 or 5w20/5w30 or something like that in a synthetic oil.
The Scorpion oil sure sounds good. How would you rate 3-N-1 oil? That is sometimes recommended.
ChopperJack is offline Find More Posts by ChopperJack
RCG Plus Member
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Oct 24, 2012, 03:14 PM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
The Scorpion oil sure sounds good. How would you rate 3-N-1 oil? That is sometimes recommended.
I can't say for helicopters. But i used to use it on my skate bearings back when i was on a speed team as a kid It's been around for decades, that stuff. I just don't know how it reacts with plastics and things. It's not like your soaking anything either. A drop goes a long way if it can slide into the bearing. If it just pools on top then it might be too thick to soak in.

I generally oil my bigger bearings every 5 or so flights and the smaller ones like the v120 every 10 flights or so. If you do it too often you end up with some run off and ejection. When i changed my V120D05 airframe out last time the inside of the frame where the main shaft bearings sit had a little pool of oil in there. I don't think i would have needed to oil the bottom bearing under the main gear for a long time. I think some of the oil from the top bearing runs it's way though the middle there too because the part of the shaft between the bearings was all greasy too. So i was probably oiling those particular bearings a little too often. But no damage was done. Just a little messy. On the 4f200 i oil the main shaft bearings every 5-10 flights or when i get around to it. They don't eject much and only a drop or 2 is needed in each then spin your bearings to work the oil in and wipe the excess off so it does not accumulate grit and grime
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 24, 2012, 06:23 PM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Since i just ordered a Gaui X5 and I couldn't find an actual Gaui X5 thread here. I started a new one for the microbeast super combo and other setups if anyone is interested in that conversation. For the time being i will be testing it with my 2801-pro and 2801-pro RX

Gaui X5 FES Super Combo - w/ Microbeast & other
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 24, 2012, 09:10 PM
Registered User
razorblade's Avatar
United States, MN, Coon Rapids
Joined Feb 2012
310 Posts
IntegrityHndywrk,

That is some awesome inverted flying. Cruising around inverted is becoming second nature to you. You practically don't even need to think about it.

At your current rate, when do you think you would be able to fly the 4F200 similar to Manuel Campus (a.k.a. buildem336) in this YouTube video?

As for me, I probably get a quarter as much flight time as most on rcgroups do, it'd take me seven years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
razorblade is online now Find More Posts by razorblade
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 24, 2012, 09:23 PM
Registered User
razorblade's Avatar
United States, MN, Coon Rapids
Joined Feb 2012
310 Posts
Ahhhhhh... sweeet!

Was there a last straw tipping point that caused you to fire away at the buy button?

The uBeast is nice. And of course the X5. Both high quality and respected brands engineered and supported by folks who give a care (damn). One of the reasons why hobbyists like the uBeast over the AR7200BX is because they don't want the receiver built-in. They want the choice of running a different receiver. Receiver independence!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Since i just ordered a Gaui X5 and I couldn't find an actual Gaui X5 thread here. I started a new one for the microbeast super combo and other setups if anyone is interested in that conversation. For the time being i will be testing it with my 2801-pro and 2801-pro RX

Gaui X5 FES Super Combo - w/ Microbeast & other
razorblade is online now Find More Posts by razorblade
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25, 2012, 02:46 AM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
IntegrityHndywrk,

That is some awesome inverted flying. Cruising around inverted is becoming second nature to you. You practically don't even need to think about it.

At your current rate, when do you think you would be able to fly the 4F200 similar to Manuel Campus (a.k.a. buildem336) in this YouTube video?

As for me, I probably get a quarter as much flight time as most on rcgroups do, it'd take me seven years.
The truth is the 4f200 can't fly like that unless it's in top condition! It's hard keeping it there. I recently reinstalled the stock motor for a performance increase because it has cooled way off here, i feel that the stock motor can be ran safely for even as much as 6-8 minutes. But it sure cooks even after 3. Since going back to the stock motor performance has increased dramatically but I baby the 4f200 still because it is my favorite. I don't like fixing the 3 blade head OR tail. In a MAJOR way i am very glad the 4f200 was my first CP heli. Because of the maintenance, additional parameters to consider like blade phasing and multi blade tracking. I got a crash course in heli repair, over night. All the pain in the ass the 4f200 has been in upkeep & repair has made it so working on real nice 2 blade setups is a walk in the park. It feels like it takes seconds to fix instead of hours and then i don't mind it so much. Accelerating my skills is also, IMO, my v450. I kind of have it in the back of my head now, since the v450 has lock me out so many times. I just kind of think, i might as well enjoy it and push the limits! Because if i don't crash it Walkera will do it for me! Thats the truth too. I've only thumbed the 450 once since i owned it. It's kind of heart breaking for most when they watch the video i made too. Worst part of it is i don't record all my flights and i have deleted quite a few crash videos because the angles were wrong or the expletives were too abundant to cut out

Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Ahhhhhh... sweeet!

Was there a last straw tipping point that caused you to fire away at the buy button?

The uBeast is nice. And of course the X5. Both high quality and respected brands engineered and supported by folks who give a care (damn). One of the reasons why hobbyists like the uBeast over the AR7200BX is because they don't want the receiver built-in. They want the choice of running a different receiver. Receiver independence!
Yes, there kind of was a last straw. The v450, after working for months to track down it's random black out / lock out issue. I thought i had finally done it! The heli flew fine for 30 flights after i had replaced the 2702V RX. No issues, flew great and the heli even felt like it was responding better. It felt kind of delayed previously. Anyway, since it was flying great, I was ECSTATIC that I had FINALLY figured out the problem as being my old 2702V being bad. After 30 flights to verify that the RX was the problem and the issue that would occur between 5-10 flights every time without fail had disappeared. So i put that 2702V on the brand new V450 i had just finished building and planned on selling from the start. It's actually currently for sale and flying fine. But again, i digress. I flew two flights on the newly built from parts V450 that i had painted yellow. Test flights went fine, no issues. THEN, my brand new 2702V arrives from wow hobbies for $119. It had a slightly used appearance because it had some scratching on the bottom and the white sticker with numbers on it had been partially torn off. I think the $119 ones are taken off of the V450s that they were installing the 2702V-D units on from the newer version v500 or where ever. But the only change was the RX. After doing 2 strap down 5 minute packs in my drive way and one 5 minute hover. I took the v450 to the field and it locked me out about 25 seconds after lift off. This was the exact same issue that the first 2702V had given me! I emailed wow and they offered to replace it with one of the new version 2702Vs from the v500 that has longer antenna wires to fight CF shadowing on the bigger helicopters. DKFuji even chimed in on the issue when i brought it up in the V120D02S thread saying he had experienced the same thing on both his v450 and v500 and so has his brother. He recommended asking for the longer wired RX wow had already suggested (probably at his instruction). Then there is Kdean in the Vclone thread having the issue as well. He dropped his nice align 500 a few times too. He began to theorize it was the fixed ID bind with the 2801-pro and 2702V. After hearing his theory i thought back and realized something. Out of the 3 2702V units i owned, only 1 out of the 3 worked properly without "lock out". That one is the one on my yellow v450 right now. It's also the only unit i NEVER tried fixed ID bind with because i had always intended to sell it and didn't want to have to reset the ID. My v450 parts should be in very soon and wow should be receiving my RMA'ed 2702V and have a new one in the mail shortly. But i might try my original "bad" 2702V without fixed ID and see what happens. Regardless i got sick of dealing with poor craftsmanship. My name is not Integrity for nothing. The only possibilities here is that the 2702V has random defects or the fixed ID bind is more susceptible to CF shadowing. Because there are plenty of people using the 2702V with fixed ID without any issue. In fact we know a few people have them on their 4f200 too. It's perplexing but now i have a gaui on the way. I couldn't afford a spek or futaba yet. So i will test it with a 2801-pro RX. Supposedly this will work, but i HAVE to use ID bind. I might just wait it out till i can afford something else. But here, check it out. The first crash on this video is the one from the brand new RX from wow. It's quite brutal, don't cry and shield your kids eyes. The second crash in the vid is actually my fault. All the rest are 2702V lock outs.

V450D01 2702V Lock out Crashes (4 min 22 sec)
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25, 2012, 11:12 AM
Diverted by planks
tracknoob's Avatar
South Florida
Joined Dec 2010
5,482 Posts
Integrity:

I own a string of 26xx and 2702 Walkera receivers.

If I saw someone flying a 450 or larger heli on any of them, I would have one piece of advice, and one only for them, but it would be emphatic and absolute:

* Remove the Walkera receiver.

*Use either a Spektrum full range with satellite, OR a Futaba. I have never had a single problem with either of those setups, on airplanes or on helis, but I have yet to have a Walkera receiver that I really trusted and have not had some sort of problem with.

* Do not be suckered in by the idea of integrated FBL control into the Walkera package. It is fool's gold. Run a Beastx, or other 'real' FBL system. You can save money in a million ways in this hobby, but the receiver/FBL combo is not one I'm willing to scrimp on any longer.
tracknoob is offline Find More Posts by tracknoob
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25, 2012, 08:04 PM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tracknoob View Post
Integrity:

I own a string of 26xx and 2702 Walkera receivers.

If I saw someone flying a 450 or larger heli on any of them, I would have one piece of advice, and one only for them, but it would be emphatic and absolute:

* Remove the Walkera receiver.

*Use either a Spektrum full range with satellite, OR a Futaba. I have never had a single problem with either of those setups, on airplanes or on helis, but I have yet to have a Walkera receiver that I really trusted and have not had some sort of problem with.

* Do not be suckered in by the idea of integrated FBL control into the Walkera package. It is fool's gold. Run a Beastx, or other 'real' FBL system. You can save money in a million ways in this hobby, but the receiver/FBL combo is not one I'm willing to scrimp on any longer.
I want to get a new TX but i'm broke. It's hard to resist!

It's funny because i have been saying EXACTLY THAT. But you would be surprised how much support i get for Walkera being "Okay". Often when i bring up these intermittent issues about WK Rx units it's surprising how many people "Love their Devo" or "love their 2801". It often gets thrown in my face that th DX8 had major issues with dropping heli and everything too. But the truth that EVERYONE that is supporting Walkera fails to recognize is the DSMX version of the DX8 has been out for about two years, and sure it had problems at first and dumped aircraft because of it. But two years later, the ISSUE IS FREAKING FIXED! Where as, two years later, i'm buying a 2702V, NEW, and still having lock outs that have been reported here and there from users for over a year and a half now but remain for the most part hidden and very hard to find. When i started having the lock outs, NO ONE MENTIONED TO ME THAT THE 2702V has had this issue with other users before. I struggled with it for like 6 months. Switching out all kinds of different electronics in the process. The brand new units from wow hobbies still have the random defect and is dropping heli out of the sky. It's not cool. I wish more people would not be so supportive of Walkera just because they are invested with their products. It would be more accurate to say, i wish more people would ATTACK Walkera for the actions they take, as well as the ones they don't take, should a epic safety concern like this appear. It's absurd, honestly.
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 09:25 PM
Moving Parts
ChopperJack's Avatar
United States, MS, Columbus
Joined May 2011
1,428 Posts
Five Blade 200SD5 Stock Rotor Head

I still have a little work to do but this is where I am with the project so far.
ChopperJack is offline Find More Posts by ChopperJack
RCG Plus Member
Old Oct 29, 2012, 09:52 PM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
I still have a little work to do but this is where I am with the project so far.
Oh wow. You went with the crazy grips. Bravo. I wasn't able to get more than one of the pro version ones. You got 5 of the Deluxe version grips. Hats off to you, just keep in mind you will have to reduce your pitch travel with 5 blades. The 4f200 settings will not fly good. You will get binding in positive travel and the 5 blade head does not need as much +/- pitch as the 2 or 3 blade head to do to produce just as much thrust. So you can adjust it how you want. The more you give it the more sensitive pitch response will be, but you risk bogging the heli down too.

Good luck, I'm sure you've already got it figured out. Are you going to get a fuse for it?
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30, 2012, 05:57 AM
Moving Parts
ChopperJack's Avatar
United States, MS, Columbus
Joined May 2011
1,428 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Oh wow. You went with the crazy grips. Bravo. I wasn't able to get more than one of the pro version ones. You got 5 of the Deluxe version grips. Hats off to you, just keep in mind you will have to reduce your pitch travel with 5 blades. The 4f200 settings will not fly good. You will get binding in positive travel and the 5 blade head does not need as much +/- pitch as the 2 or 3 blade head to do to produce just as much thrust. So you can adjust it how you want. The more you give it the more sensitive pitch response will be, but you risk bogging the heli down too.

Good luck, I'm sure you've already got it figured out. Are you going to get a fuse for it?
I doubt I will venture any farther than pod and boom. I just want to get some five blade flying experience pursuant to reinstalling five blades on my HK(mostly Align) 600-GT which has MD500D fuse patiently waiting. I'm very slow about getting flight time on the 600 with two blades. I had to remove five blades primarily because of transportation issues.

I have noticed the blades on the stock 4f200 are over twice the width of the 200SD5 blades. I'm thinking lift will be close to the same maybe. Also, phasing is locked down not adjustable. It is close to being set at 90 degrees but a bit off. I am hoping this will not cause a problem.

My biggest problem so far is getting the servo arms set at 90 degrees. Mechanical adjustment is out of the question so I have to resort to subtrim which acts a bit crazy. I can get the arms as close as possible to 90 then when I turn it off and back on, the right servo drives all the way up and left down some. But, this is consistent every time thereafter. So, I am thinking I will find an intermediate position which will result in servo arms at 90 after rebinding.

Parts are available from WalkeraHelicopterSupply.com and WOWhobby. I have found that Dave at WalkeraHelicopterSupply can order anything you need. He was out of stock on 200SD5 feathering shafts until he found out I needed five of them. It took about two weeks but he restocked and I received parts yesterday. I am relatively sure since I bought most of the parts from him I am now recognized as a customer in good standing.

I grew impatient in the mean time so decided to cut the 200SD3 feathering shafts down I had ordered as a substitute. I cut them to the exact length of the 200SD5 shafts which is 7.25mm. Only problem is you are left with about three good threads after shortening the shaft and screws. The 200SD5 shafts even though shorter have way plenty of threads. I will be removing the modified feathering shafts and installing the correct ones. I don't trust three threads no matter if they are thread locked or glued.
ChopperJack is offline Find More Posts by ChopperJack
RCG Plus Member
Old Oct 30, 2012, 05:55 PM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
I doubt I will venture any farther than pod and boom. I just want to get some five blade flying experience pursuant to reinstalling five blades on my HK(mostly Align) 600-GT which has MD500D fuse patiently waiting. I'm very slow about getting flight time on the 600 with two blades. I had to remove five blades primarily because of transportation issues.

I have noticed the blades on the stock 4f200 are over twice the width of the 200SD5 blades. I'm thinking lift will be close to the same maybe. Also, phasing is locked down not adjustable. It is close to being set at 90 degrees but a bit off. I am hoping this will not cause a problem.

My biggest problem so far is getting the servo arms set at 90 degrees. Mechanical adjustment is out of the question so I have to resort to subtrim which acts a bit crazy. I can get the arms as close as possible to 90 then when I turn it off and back on, the right servo drives all the way up and left down some. But, this is consistent every time thereafter. So, I am thinking I will find an intermediate position which will result in servo arms at 90 after rebinding.

Parts are available from WalkeraHelicopterSupply.com and WOWhobby. I have found that Dave at WalkeraHelicopterSupply can order anything you need. He was out of stock on 200SD5 feathering shafts until he found out I needed five of them. It took about two weeks but he restocked and I received parts yesterday. I am relatively sure since I bought most of the parts from him I am now recognized as a customer in good standing.

I grew impatient in the mean time so decided to cut the 200SD3 feathering shafts down I had ordered as a substitute. I cut them to the exact length of the 200SD5 shafts which is 7.25mm. Only problem is you are left with about three good threads after shortening the shaft and screws. The 200SD5 shafts even though shorter have way plenty of threads. I will be removing the modified feathering shafts and installing the correct ones. I don't trust three threads no matter if they are thread locked or glued.
Don't worry about the phasing being off a few degrees. All this is going to do is effect your control response a little bit. If it's off in one direction it will respond slower and with more delay. If it's off in the opposite direction your controls will respond faster. Blade phasing is kind of like a control delay because human response time is not quick enough. Or something like that. I don't really know what i'm talking about.


The servo arms are a pain, and always will be. Your best bet is to try hand fulls of servo arms, or try to move the internal gearing inside the servo so that the neutral point is closer to 90. You can do this by pulling the main spline gear out of the potentiometer and rotating it by 90 degrees and trying the horn. Rotate another 90 degrees, try horn. I really can't think of one 3 axis gyro that won't act up if you use trims or subtrims. My beastX gyros warn that it will case the gyros to confuse them for YOUR inputs and it could cause a crash. Walkera just does not document anything at all. But i know many people argue this point. But i've flown the 4f200 with misaligned servo horns so many times, it really doesn't matter as long as your get it close and the travel is in line the whole path. Good luck with it either way, i know it's a pain working on these damn servos.
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 01, 2012, 08:29 PM
Moving Parts
ChopperJack's Avatar
United States, MS, Columbus
Joined May 2011
1,428 Posts
Five Blade Head Alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Don't worry about the phasing being off a few degrees. All this is going to do is effect your control response a little bit. If it's off in one direction it will respond slower and with more delay. If it's off in the opposite direction your controls will respond faster. Blade phasing is kind of like a control delay because human response time is not quick enough. Or something like that. I don't really know what I'm talking about.


The servo arms are a pain, and always will be. Your best bet is to try hand fulls of servo arms, or try to move the internal gearing inside the servo so that the neutral point is closer to 90. You can do this by pulling the main spline gear out of the potentiometer and rotating it by 90 degrees and trying the horn. Rotate another 90 degrees, try horn. I really can't think of one 3 axis gyro that won't act up if you use trims or subtrims. My beastX gyros warn that it will case the gyros to confuse them for YOUR inputs and it could cause a crash. Walkera just does not document anything at all. But i know many people argue this point. But I've flown the 4f200 with misaligned servo horns so many times, it really doesn't matter as long as your get it close and the travel is in line the whole path. Good luck with it either way, i know it's a pain working on these damn servos.
I removed the modified feathering shafts and installed the stock feathering shafts. They come with washers which I found unnecessary. I used thread lock on everything being careful not to allow any thread lock on the bearings or shafts. That prompted the following.

Here is what I came up with. As to servo arm 90 degree adjustment, the best I could do was to set ELEV subtrim to U25 and AILE subtrim to L68. That got the arms close to 90 degrees. I gave the starboard side servo link one twist in making it slightly shorter. I think this is as close as I'm going to get it for now. I'm sure I will need to make additional adjustments.

As to phasing, not much I can do about that because there is a pin going through the main shaft which locks the swash follower (normally used to adjust phasing) in place. As you can see from the pictures, phasing isn't off much.
ChopperJack is offline Find More Posts by ChopperJack
RCG Plus Member
Old Nov 01, 2012, 10:52 PM
IHW Heli Division
IntegrityHndywrk's Avatar
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
7,345 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
I removed the modified feathering shafts and installed the stock feathering shafts. They come with washers which I found unnecessary. I used thread lock on everything being careful not to allow any thread lock on the bearings or shafts. That prompted the following.

Here is what I came up with. As to servo arm 90 degree adjustment, the best I could do was to set ELEV subtrim to U25 and AILE subtrim to L68. That got the arms close to 90 degrees. I gave the starboard side servo link one twist in making it slightly shorter. I think this is as close as I'm going to get it for now. I'm sure I will need to make additional adjustments.

As to phasing, not much I can do about that because there is a pin going through the main shaft which locks the swash follower (normally used to adjust phasing) in place. As you can see from the pictures, phasing isn't off much.
Looks good, that is about how mine was too.
IntegrityHndywrk is offline Find More Posts by IntegrityHndywrk
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Another new Walkera! HM 4F200 heli-parkflyer Micro Helis 84 Jan 08, 2011 03:40 PM
Off Site Walkera 4#3 2.4Ghz RTF - Metal Head Version nighthawk0077 Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 0 Nov 22, 2009 09:23 PM
Discussion Unique "mixer less" Bell Hiller Head design of the MSR plus Walkera 4#3 Mixer lesss EQMOD Micro Helis 47 Sep 27, 2009 12:59 AM
Discussion 45 Degree Flybar Conversion on a Walkera 4#3 V1 BELL HILLER head EQMOD Micro Helis 13 Sep 02, 2009 12:15 AM
Build Log Walkera 4#3 HH-65 USCG Dauphin--VIDEO 4 Blade head works page6 stevel48 Micro Helis 146 Dec 03, 2008 11:16 AM